If a stream-winner...

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Reductor
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Reductor »

Freawaru wrote: I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people. If the reaction would be: if THAT person can reach sotapanna it can't be so hard, I can do it, too. If you ask me too many practitioners block themselves by considering themselves not able enough.

But I doubt this would be the reaction. I recall Ven. Nanavira Thera's experience with it: everybody placing him on some kind of pedestal ! :shrug:
This is more in line with what I was thinking; that a genuine claim could be a great help/inducement in the practice of others. As for what the sotapanna would gain, that would be markedly less, for what gain could be better than the stream?

Of course, I don't think it likely that anyone would be raised up on a pedestal, unless done by those that know them in the flesh. Online I think the reaction would be decidedly more hostile.

But, I thank everyone who has thus far participated in this thread. I think this is my last post in this thread though.

Oh, PeterB - I didn't think that you were making a personal slight against me, or anyone else. All is good.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by DNS »

Chula wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Even anagamis have ... some sense desires.
A little off-topic, but wanted to make a small correction: anāgāmī's do no have any sense desire - just desire for form (rūparāga) and desire for the formless (arūparāga).
:oops: Yes, thank you.

I meant saka-dagamis have greatly weakened the cravings for sense desires and anagamis and Arahants have eradicated sense desires completely.

What has been debated here is sotapanna level, how much higher is even a saka-dagami or anagami and both still have conceit.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Mukunda »

retrofuturist wrote:One element you may not have considered in the above is that such questioning is also for the benefit of the potential stream-entrant in the sense that they might be deluded about their attainment, and may falsely believe themselves to be a stream-entrant when in fact they're not. Indeed, looking at some of the aspects of what constitutes stream-entry, such as that in those compendiums I provided links to, it would be quite easy to interpret these in such a way that one believed they indeed were a stream-entrant. Again, differences in the Sutta, Abhidhamma and Commentarial perspectives only go to confuse things further.
This is precisely why one should make every effort to work with a fully qualified teacher and not assume they can do it all by them self using books and on line forums.
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Zhalmed Pawo »

Wind wrote:This might not add to the discussion but I personally prefer the term "stream-enterer" rather than "stream-winner". The word "winner" puts too much emphases on a prize of some sorts while "enterer" place more emphasis on accomplishing an important step on the path.
Hmmm... When people speak about "stream-enterers" or "stream-winners", do they usually mean one thing or two? I mean, there are two types of "stream-persons" mentioned in the Suttas - those who have attained the path of stream-entry, and those who have attained the fruit of stream-entry. Both types are Aryans. I find it very difficult to understand what people, or the Suttas, mean exactly, as nobody seems to keep these two Aryan types separate, and in many Suttas they are also 'merged together'.

So, when has someone entered the path, and when has someone attained the fruit, of stream-entry? Is there any easy clear-cut answer to this? :reading:
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Annapurna
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Annapurna »

I don't think there are clear borders, because when this arises, that arises.

When stream entry happens, fruit is not far, or immediately there, if you think about it, in form of greater calm and happiness through clarity.

At least that is what comes to my mind. What arises in my mind.

With metta,

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fig tree
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by fig tree »

Discussions of the seven purifications describe a stage where the "corruptions of insight" arise. If I remember correctly one of them is a feeling that one should go teach people. I get the impression that one of the purposes of these cautions against proclaiming one's high attainments is to protect the person at that stage. Probably it's a helpful thing if a person going through that who "acts out" their inclination to blab about it runs into people whose reaction is cautious and sober.

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mikenz66
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by mikenz66 »

Here's a link explaining what fig tree refers to, which happens at the fourth insight nana:
4. Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... ml#Arising" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/For ... orruptions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Corruptions of Insight

At this juncture there generally arise many strange experiences, such as:–

1. Mental visions of brilliant lights,
2. Rapturous feelings,
3. Calm feelings,
4. Devotional feelings towards the Buddha, Dhamma and Saṅgha,
5. Great energy in carrying out the contemplation,
6. Happiness,
7. The quick and clear perceiving of objects,
8. The capability in carrying out mindfulness without missing any object,
9. Automatic contemplation without particular effort,
10. Feeling of subtle pleasure in the contemplation.

The disciple therefore, is so much elated that he can no longer keep silence but generally speaks out about his experiences. He often considers that he has already attained enlightenment. This is the initial or early stage of ‘Udayabbaya-ñāna’ (knowledge of arising and passing away). However, it is a wrong path.
Hopefully the meditator has enough knowledge or guidance to get to:
Then the disciple decides that the experiences of seeing mental visions and other feelings are not the actual attainment of enlightenment, and that the correct method of contemplation to attain enlightenment is only constant observation of whatever arises. He comes to this decision in accordance with what he has learnt from the text or in accordance with the instructions of his teachers.
Though Steve Armstrong, in his Dhamma talks sometimes makes statements along the lines of: "You will believe you are englightened and that your teacher is just too dumb to see it..."

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by rowyourboat »

Harch, unflinching honesty is the best tool to determine whether oneself is a stream entrant or not. I don't think anyone other than a Buddha can say whether another person is stream entrant.
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Virgo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by Virgo »

Freawaru wrote: I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people.
There could be a number of reasons that it could happen in a truthful situation. An ariyan could let another Buddhist know because he knows the other Buddhist would use it as an opportunity to amass a great deal of merit through paying respect or making some small offering (even a small offering goes a long, long, way when given to an Ariya). Or, perhaps, if he felt he was being treated unfairly or abused by another Buddhist who had no idea he was an Ariyan, he might let them know out of kindness for them.

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by DNS »

mikenz66 wrote: Though Steve Armstrong, in his Dhamma talks sometimes makes statements along the lines of: "You will believe you are englightened and that your teacher is just too dumb to see it..."
If only I had a dollar for every time I have heard that one or heard it said to a monk. :)

Some will come to a temple or Dhamma center and say something to the effect of, "I know I'm enlightened, but my teacher doesn't think so. My teacher is too dumb to see my enlightenment."

Just the fact that they are looking for certification and saying those things tells me right away that they are not enlightened. Not necessarily because stating the attainment means automatically that one is not, but rather because they are teacher shopping for one that will confirm their "enlightenment."
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Well yes, you do hear this a lot. People experience a moment of clarity or bliss during meditation and all of a sudden think this experience is bodhi. This happened to me when I was seventeen or so. I thought I had glimpsed an Aleph (there's a term for some of you esotericists ) but it was just the product of a long period of meditation which led to a moment of clarity and happiness. This is why it's imperative to have a good teacher handy to smack the nonsense out of you and set you straight when you get carried away. :tongue:

But I do think there are Stream-winners in the world, probably more than many people assume.

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
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mikenz66
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi David,
David N. Snyder wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: Though Steve Armstrong, in his Dhamma talks sometimes makes statements along the lines of: "You will believe you are englightened and that your teacher is just too dumb to see it..."
If only I had a dollar for every time I have heard that one or heard it said to a monk. :)

Some will come to a temple or Dhamma center and say something to the effect of, "I know I'm enlightened, but my teacher doesn't think so. My teacher is too dumb to see my enlightenment."

Just the fact that they are looking for certification and saying those things tells me right away that they are not enlightened. Not necessarily because stating the attainment means automatically that one is not, but rather because they are teacher shopping for one that will confirm their "enlightenment."
I agree this could happen, but Steve seemed to be saying that everyone falls into this trap, even those who are totally under the guidance of a teacher teacher (U Pandidta in his case).

Mike
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by PeterB »

Perhaps this is a cultural thing, but I can put my hand on my heart and say that I have only once heard someone in a UK Buddhist setting claim Enlightenment. And as the claimee was clearly erm...."challenged"..this claim was just treated with kindliness and concern.
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salmon
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by salmon »

Freawaru wrote: I think there would be only one reason for an aryan to claim "aryanship": if it would increase the effort of people.
All the more they wouldn't claim coz it would increase doubt and not effort. In this instance, I'm assuming the OP's supposition that it is a verbal claim and not one of action.
Virgo wrote: There could be a number of reasons that it could happen in a truthful situation. An ariyan could let another Buddhist know because he knows the other Buddhist would use it as an opportunity to amass a great deal of merit through paying respect or making some small offering (even a small offering goes a long, long, way when given to an Ariya). Or, perhaps, if he felt he was being treated unfairly or abused by another Buddhist who had no idea he was an Ariyan, he might let them know out of kindness for them.
In the case of merit making...if you were to make merit to a monk (or laity) BECAUSE he/she was an ariyan, then the merit you will accrue will be very much compromised (like in the case of the Buddha's stepmother).

An ariyan who wishes to allow others to accrue more merit through them will discreetly allow themselves to be in situation where the merit-maker can gain the most benefits. This is because they have already reached a level where they can understand the workings of a human mind (to which those of lower "enlightenment levels" are blind to).

As for the case about not letting others create more kamma...honestly, if the person you detest told you he/she was an ariyan, would you believe?? The ariyan would excuse himself from being caught in that situation by his wisdom and not claims (like in the case of Maha Moggallana and the bandits).
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Zhalmed Pawo wrote:So, when has someone entered the path, and when has someone attained the fruit, of stream-entry? Is there any easy clear-cut answer to this? :reading:
Try this - http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=51" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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