Never assume, it makes an ass out of u and me.tiltbillings wrote:Face only; I am not that kind of guy, assuming you are a guy.Goofaholix wrote:As long as it's the ones on my face and you aren't too rough, well, alright then.tiltbillings wrote:You are so cute, I just want to pinch your cheeks.
Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
- Goofaholix
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
- christopher:::
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
Most definitely, you both are cute.
Thanks for jumping in, Venerable. Either that or he might have been referring to a well brewed cup of coffee. Ajahn Sucitto does seem to gravitate toward edible metaphors and analogies...Dhammanando wrote:Or perhaps "ground of being" is just Ajahn Sucitto's Cockney pronunciation of "ground up beans". In that case obviously he would be alluding to the Satipatthana Sutta's simile for the thirty-two parts of the body.tiltbillings wrote:The problem is with "ground of being" is that it carries baggage. I guess I can allow that he is ignorant of that.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
There's something wrong with the crema on that coffee. Perhaps its suds from residue dishwashing liquid.
Whether its the residue or the ground-up being, don't drink it!!
Whether its the residue or the ground-up being, don't drink it!!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
I was not asking you to edited Sucitto's text; rather, to give your own take on Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience. But since we are going in that direction:christopher::: wrote: And now Venerable's thoughts, edited slightly to (hopefully) clarify, as per Tilt's request...
And so instead of there being a proper grounding in the rise and fall of our our experience, we develop views, ideas, opinions, standpoints that are not grounded in insight that leads to a calm, quiet, expansive, equanimous, compassionate mind/body process, but that tends to become aspects of "My Self." And this means there's a certain fragmentation that occurs, my self as an experience in the way I'm using it is something that splits away from experience and thereby thinks it has the experience. "Here I am having this, I can get this, I can do this, I can make this happen" and so forth.
It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.Re-reading through it again without the ground of dissention to me it can be summarised to say that calm is about be-ing, not about do-ing, if you slip into do-ing it will become fragmented and "the self" will be very much in the drivers seat, which is not what you want.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
tiltbillings wrote:It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.
Yes it's true. Always use fresh grounds of being for a refreshing cup of luminous mind.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
- tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
Yeah, yeah, luminous mind (citta). Where is that luminous mind? Rising and falling.nathan wrote:tiltbillings wrote:It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.
Yes it's true. Always use fresh grounds of being for a refreshing cup of luminous mind.
It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grans still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
You can see this rising and falling very clearly if you drop a creamer into a freshly brewed cup in a glass mug. I think the analogy holds up from coffee to body to the heap on fire. Try to read too much depth into the analogies and it gets stale quick. Fresh beans, always.tiltbillings wrote:Yeah, yeah, luminous mind (citta). Where is that luminous mind? Rising and falling.nathan wrote:tiltbillings wrote:It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.
Yes it's true. Always use fresh grounds of being for a refreshing cup of luminous mind.It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grans still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
tiltbillings wrote:Yeah, yeah, luminous mind (citta). Where is that luminous mind? Rising and falling.nathan wrote:tiltbillings wrote:It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.
Yes it's true. Always use fresh grounds of being for a refreshing cup of luminous mind.It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grans still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5
" To take as self this body "
For a number of reasons I think this passage should have particular resonance for moderns.
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
No, I meant it in the take this body as a cup of roasted beans sense. The mind is like the pleasant aroma wafting up out of the cup. No place for a self anywhere. Just beans, fresh.PeterB wrote: " To take as self this body "
For a number of reasons I think this passage should have particular resonance for moderns.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
I wasnt responding to your analogy Nathan,
I was responding to Tiltbillings quotation from SN11 94-5.
I was responding to Tiltbillings quotation from SN11 94-5.
- christopher:::
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
Took a bit of time for this to sink in, but Yes! indeed, i think, that's what Sucitto is talking about. The "Monkey swinging thru the Jungle Mind" analogy is clearer than the luminous swirling coffee beans...tiltbillings wrote:christopher::: wrote:
I was not asking you to edited Sucitto's text; rather, to give your own take on Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience. But since we are going in that direction:
And so instead of there being a proper grounding in the rise and fall of our our experience, we develop views, ideas, opinions, standpoints that are not grounded in insight that leads to a calm, quiet, expansive, equanimous, compassionate mind/body process, but that tends to become aspects of "My Self." And this means there's a certain fragmentation that occurs, my self as an experience in the way I'm using it is something that splits away from experience and thereby thinks it has the experience. "Here I am having this, I can get this, I can do this, I can make this happen" and so forth.It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.Re-reading through it again without the ground of dissention to me it can be summarised to say that calm is about be-ing, not about do-ing, if you slip into do-ing it will become fragmented and "the self" will be very much in the drivers seat, which is not what you want.tiltbillings wrote:It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5
Self-making & the fragmentation of experience seems to be another way of understanding the process of dependent origination...
Interesting!
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
Hi christopher:::,
Metta
Mike
I believe that the commentary to that Sutta states (I'd have to go back to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation) that this simile is about the rapid pace of change in any mind, not about "clinging". An Arahant will still have a mind that changes rapidly.christopher::: wrote: Took a bit of time for this to sink in, but Yes! indeed, i think, that's what Sucitto is talking about. The "Monkey swinging thru the Jungle Mind" analogy is clearer than the luminous swirling coffee beans...
Self-making & the fragmentation of experience seems to be another way of understanding the process of dependent origination...
Metta
Mike
- retrofuturist
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
Greetings Mike,
I thought (from memory too) that it was about grasping one object after another, so I'd be interested to see what was said.
Metta,
Retro.
I thought (from memory too) that it was about grasping one object after another, so I'd be interested to see what was said.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
Ahh, Tiltbillings.
Plenty of PAPANCHA (my caps) going on there for ya mate.
Plenty of PAPANCHA (my caps) going on there for ya mate.
kia kaha Buddhadhamma
Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience
Hi Retro,
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#monkey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 12.61 Assutava Sutta: Uninstructed
See also:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Well, the sutta is here:retrofuturist wrote: I thought (from memory too) that it was about grasping one object after another, so I'd be interested too.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#monkey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 12.61 Assutava Sutta: Uninstructed
That doesn't read to me to be about grasping. It is contrasting the rapid changes in the mind with the relatively slow changes in the body."It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
See also:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike"I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is."