Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

[Goofaholix]

You are so cute, I just want to pinch your cheeks.

As long as it's the ones on my face and you aren't too rough, well, alright then.

Face only; I am not that kind of guy, assuming you are a guy.

Never assume, it makes an ass out of u and me.

[christopher:::]

Most definitely, you both are cute.

The problem is with "ground of being" is that it carries baggage. I guess I can allow that he is ignorant of that.

Or perhaps "ground of being" is just Ajahn Sucitto's Cockney pronunciation of "ground up beans". In that case obviously he would be alluding to the Satipatthana Sutta's simile for the thirty-two parts of the body.

Thanks for jumping in, Venerable. Either that or he might have been referring to a well brewed cup of coffee. Ajahn Sucitto does seem to gravitate toward edible metaphors and analogies...

[Ben]

There's something wrong with the crema on that coffee. Perhaps its suds from residue dishwashing liquid.
Whether its the residue or the ground-up being, don't drink it!!

[tiltbillings]

And now Venerable's thoughts, edited slightly to (hopefully) clarify, as per Tilt's request...

I was not asking you to edited Sucitto's text; rather, to give your own take on Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience. But since we are going in that direction:

And so instead of there being a proper grounding in the rise and fall of our our experience, we develop views, ideas, opinions, standpoints that are not grounded in insight that leads to a calm, quiet, expansive, equanimous, compassionate mind/body process, but that tends to become aspects of "My Self." And this means there's a certain fragmentation that occurs, my self as an experience in the way I'm using it is something that splits away from experience and thereby thinks it has the experience. "Here I am having this, I can get this, I can do this, I can make this happen" and so forth.

Re-reading through it again without the ground of dissention to me it can be summarised to say that calm is about be-ing, not about do-ing, if you slip into do-ing it will become fragmented and "the self" will be very much in the drivers seat, which is not what you want.

It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.

[nathan]

It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.

Yes it's true. Always use fresh grounds of being for a refreshing cup of luminous mind.

[tiltbillings]

It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.

Yes it's true. Always use fresh grounds of being for a refreshing cup of luminous mind.

Yeah, yeah, luminous mind (citta). Where is that luminous mind? Rising and falling.

It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grans still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5

[nathan]

It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.

Yes it's true. Always use fresh grounds of being for a refreshing cup of luminous mind.

Yeah, yeah, luminous mind (citta). Where is that luminous mind? Rising and falling.

It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grans still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5

You can see this rising and falling very clearly if you drop a creamer into a freshly brewed cup in a glass mug. I think the analogy holds up from coffee to body to the heap on fire. Try to read too much depth into the analogies and it gets stale quick. Fresh beans, always.

[PeterB]

It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.

Yes it's true. Always use fresh grounds of being for a refreshing cup of luminous mind.

Yeah, yeah, luminous mind (citta). Where is that luminous mind? Rising and falling.

It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grans still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5

" To take as self this body "
For a number of reasons I think this passage should have particular resonance for moderns.

[nathan]

" To take as self this body "
For a number of reasons I think this passage should have particular resonance for moderns.

No, I meant it in the take this body as a cup of roasted beans sense. The mind is like the pleasant aroma wafting up out of the cup. No place for a self anywhere. Just beans, fresh.

[PeterB]

I wasnt responding to your analogy Nathan,
I was responding to Tiltbillings quotation from SN11 94-5.

[christopher:::]

I was not asking you to edited Sucitto's text; rather, to give your own take on Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience. But since we are going in that direction:

And so instead of there being a proper grounding in the rise and fall of our our experience, we develop views, ideas, opinions, standpoints that are not grounded in insight that leads to a calm, quiet, expansive, equanimous, compassionate mind/body process, but that tends to become aspects of "My Self." And this means there's a certain fragmentation that occurs, my self as an experience in the way I'm using it is something that splits away from experience and thereby thinks it has the experience. "Here I am having this, I can get this, I can do this, I can make this happen" and so forth.

Re-reading through it again without the ground of dissention to me it can be summarised to say that calm is about be-ing, not about do-ing, if you slip into do-ing it will become fragmented and "the self" will be very much in the drivers seat, which is not what you want.

It is a never stopping process. Even Sucitto says so.

It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [vi~n~naana]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5

Took a bit of time for this to sink in, but Yes! indeed, i think, that's what Sucitto is talking about. The "Monkey swinging thru the Jungle Mind" analogy is clearer than the luminous swirling coffee beans...

Self-making & the fragmentation of experience seems to be another way of understanding the process of dependent origination...



Interesting!

[mikenz66]

Hi christopher:::,

Took a bit of time for this to sink in, but Yes! indeed, i think, that's what Sucitto is talking about. The "Monkey swinging thru the Jungle Mind" analogy is clearer than the luminous swirling coffee beans...

Self-making & the fragmentation of experience seems to be another way of understanding the process of dependent origination...

I believe that the commentary to that Sutta states (I'd have to go back to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation) that this simile is about the rapid pace of change in any mind, not about "clinging". An Arahant will still have a mind that changes rapidly.

Metta
Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

I thought (from memory too) that it was about grasping one object after another, so I'd be interested to see what was said.

Metta,
Retro.

[Yodsak]

Ahh, Tiltbillings.

Plenty of PAPANCHA (my caps) going on there for ya mate.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

I thought (from memory too) that it was about grasping one object after another, so I'd be interested too.

Well, the sutta is here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#monkey" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN 12.61 Assutava Sutta: Uninstructed

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

That doesn't read to me to be about grasping. It is contrasting the rapid changes in the mind with the relatively slow changes in the body.

See also:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is."

Mike