Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

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retrofuturist
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Yep, looks like you remembered it correctly. Somewhere along the way I must have gotten something else "monkey mind" related mixed in with it.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by christopher::: »

Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
The monkey provides a good analogy, a metaphor for how our minds work. As such it draws our attention to a number of characteristics. Arising of emotions, clinging to thoughts and views-- all endlessly moving, changing throughout each day...

Yes, Buddha may have been trying to make one specific point there, or perhaps more than one. I wouldn't want to get into a debate about it.

The key issue Sucitto was getting at (i think) is what's going on each day, in our own heads, and how can the cultivation of tranquility, concentration and equanamity help us to untangle (and/or calm) these dependent arisings...

:juggling:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by mikenz66 »

HI christopher:::,

Of course you can take many meanings from various Suttas. If you are interested, Bhikkhu Bodhi (Pages 770-771 of his SN translation) quotes extensively from the Commentary on how the monkey grasping various objects is like the mind, which takes various objects very quickly in succession. Of course, you can recognise this as this is an Abhidhamma-oriented interpretation.

Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:
It should be noted that neither the sutta nor the commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey; the point, rather, is that the mind is always dependent on an object.
Mike
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:
It should be noted that neither the sutta nor the commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey; the point, rather, is that the mind is always dependent on an object.
Mike
It pains me a bit to disagree with Bhikkhu Bodhi (and the commentary) but I do think that both interpretations (restless and dependent on an object) are correct. Compare to Uddesa-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Statement
"And how is agitation caused by clinging/sustenance? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. His form changes & is unstable. Because of the change & instability of form, his consciousness alters in accordance with the change in form. With the agitations born from the alteration in accordance with the change in form and coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities, his mind stays consumed. And because of the consumption of awareness, he feels fearful, threatened, & solicitous.

"He assumes feeling to be the self...

"He assumes perception to be the self...

"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, of the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. His consciousness changes & is unstable. Because of the change & instability of consciousness, his consciousness alters in accordance with the change in consciousness. With the agitations born from the alteration in accordance with the change in consciousness and coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities, his mind stays consumed. And because of the consumption of awareness, he feels fearful, threatened, & solicitous.

"This, friends, is how agitation is caused by clinging/sustenance.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The necessity is not to develop a stable consciousness but a consciousness that does not alter with the changes and instabilities of consciousness. Or to put it differently, the idea is not to stop the jumping monkey but to shift view to something that stays unaltered when the monkey jumps:
"And how is non-agitation caused by lack of clinging/ sustenance? There is the case where an instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for nobles ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma
...
His consciousness changes & is unstable, but his consciousness doesn't — because of the change & instability of consciousness — alter in accordance with the change in consciousness. His mind is not consumed with any agitations born from an alteration in accordance with the change in consciousness or coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities. And because his awareness is not consumed, he feels neither fearful, threatened, nor solicitous.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So what is required is a consciousness that does not alter when consciousness alters. The monkey still jumps from tree to tree. It happens. Sometimes it stays longer at one tree, sometimes it jumps fast - the trick is to develop that awareness that stays independent of all that jumping. I think this is what Ven. Sucitto means by "Ground of Being".
Ajahn Sucitto wrote: And so instead of there being a properly established Ground of Being that's bright, luminous, immaculate, suffusive we develop views, ideas, opinions, standpoints that are not shining, luminous, immaculate, suffusive but that tend to become aspects of "My Self." And this means there's a certain fragmentation that occurs, my self as an experience in the way I'm using it is something that splits away from experience and thereby thinks it has the experience. "Here I am having this, I can get this, I can do this, I can make this happen" and so forth.

We descend from what was an essential integrity and essential wholeness back into behavioral dualism. And then of course the whole thing begins to break down because for a certain amount of time we are able to "do" the calm, "do" the metta, "get" the anicca going but its becoming much more dishonest in a way. It becomes a strategy rather then a realization. One is no longer meeting the experience fully and embracing it fully."
The awareness itself, that stable kind of consciousness mentioned in the Uddesa-vibhanga Sutta refers IMO to what he means by "Ground of Being": the connection. It does not do something, it let things happen. It does not interfere, does not disturb. It has these qualities of being "bright, luminous, immaculate, suffusive" and it does not have ideas, opinions and so on because these are properties of the changing consciousness, the monkey mind.
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by tiltbillings »

Freawaru,

You might want to rethink all of that, seriously rethink all of that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Anders »

tiltbillings wrote:Freawaru,

You might want to rethink all of that, seriously rethink all of that.
What did you make of it that was so terribly wrong that all of it should seriously rethought?
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by christopher::: »

Freawaru wrote:
The awareness itself, that stable kind of consciousness mentioned in the Uddesa-vibhanga Sutta refers IMO to what he means by "Ground of Being": the connection. It does not do something, it let things happen. It does not interfere, does not disturb. It has these qualities of being "bright, luminous, immaculate, suffusive" and it does not have ideas, opinions and so on because these are properties of the changing consciousness, the monkey mind.
That may be more of a Zen/Dzogchen view, which can also be effective (at least in J. Goldstein's opinion) when put into practice. The challenge is to cultivate an alert and tranquil mind that does not cling to anything...
In recent years you've been studying with some Tibetan teachers. What inspired that?

In the early nineties, our old friend Surya Das, whom we knew from India, had come back from two three-year Tibetan retreats. He told us about his practices and encouraged us to meet his teachers, particularly two great dzogchen masters, Tulku Urgyen, who died recently, and Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche. Surya Das had done some vipassana practice before his Tibetan retreats, so I think he felt that we would also have a connection with the dzogchen teachings.

What's the connection?

The connection is awareness and freeing the mind. In vipassana, there's a great emphasis on the objects of awareness and being mindful of them. We pay attention to the breath, to thoughts, to sensations, and notice their impermanent, insubstantial nature. In dzogchen there's less emphasis on the object and more on recognizing the empty nature of awareness and resting in that.

What do you mean by the "empty nature of awareness"?

In different traditions this phrase might be explained in different ways. One way of understanding it is that when one looks for awareness, there's nothing to find. It's invisible, formless, groundless, and yet there is a cognizant capacity-there's knowing. In dzogchen, this is the union of awareness and emptiness. The "pointing-out instructions" that a qualified dzogchen master will give in a variety of ways help the student to recognize this nature of their own mind.

In the Burmese system, liberation involves transcending awareness. In dzogchen, liberation is recognizing that the nature of mind is awareness itself. These are two quite different ways of expressing things. I spent a month of that retreat trying to figure it out, trying to decide who was "right." I finally came to realize that I could understand both systems as skillful means rather than as statements of absolute truth.

Well, that was a huge relief. But, of course, then the question arises, "Well, skillful means for what?" What I've come to understand more deeply over the years-and what I think is supported by the teachings in all of the Buddhist traditions-is that the liberated mind is the mind that does not cling to anything. In one discourse the Buddha said, "Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as I or mine. Whoever has realized this has realized all the teachings."

All the different methods and metaphysical systems can be seen as skillful means to accomplish the mind of no-clinging. This understanding really freed me from attachments to metaphysical models that I didn't even know I'd had. I'd been so completely immersed in the model of the Burmese teachings that when I came into contact with a different model, it became a huge conflict. I had just assumed that the particular way we speak of things was the truth, forgetting that the words were just skillful means for experiencing the mind that doesn't cling to anything. That's where the freedom is.

How did you settle the contradiction between the Burmese and dzogchen notions of awareness? You said the Burmese aims to transcend awareness into the "unconditioned," or "nirvana," which they would describe as the cessation of consciousness. But in dzogchen, there's no possibility of transcending awareness since it's the very nature of mind.

I've had intimations that perhaps at a certain point these concepts of awareness and of transcending awareness are themselves no longer applicable: The actual experience may be beyond that duality. On one level of experience what may seem to be a conflict, on another level may be resolved through a deeper understanding.

~Joseph Goldstein
"An Interview with Joseph Goldstein" Tricycle - The Buddhist Review
:buddha1:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by mikenz66 »

Anders, Tilt, Freawaru,
Anders Honore wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Freawaru,

You might want to rethink all of that, seriously rethink all of that.
What did you make of it that was so terribly wrong that all of it should seriously rethought?
This bit about:
Freawaru wrote: The necessity is not to develop a stable consciousness but a consciousness that does not alter with the changes and instabilities of consciousness. ...
Seems contradictory. Consciousness arises in association with objects. That's clear not only in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries, but in many Suttas. It is always altering (according to the Buddha Dhamma). It seems to me that the Buddha challenges us to accept that everything we experience is anicca. He does not advocate seeking something "stable" in it.

Of course I could be misinterpreting the post...

Mike
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Mike, Tilt, Anders,
mikenz66 wrote:
Freawaru wrote: The necessity is not to develop a stable consciousness but a consciousness that does not alter with the changes and instabilities of consciousness. ...
Seems contradictory. Consciousness arises in association with objects. That's clear not only in the Abhidhamma and Commentaries, but in many Suttas. It is always altering (according to the Buddha Dhamma). It seems to me that the Buddha challenges us to accept that everything we experience is anicca. He does not advocate seeking something "stable" in it.
Yes, I see what you mean about contradictory. Sounds paradox. But let me quote the Uddesa-vibhanga Sutta again:
His consciousness changes & is unstable, but his consciousness doesn't — because of the change & instability of consciousness — alter in accordance with the change in consciousness.
His consciousness changes but his consciousness doesn't alter with the change in consciousness. Well, "alter" is a synonym of "change", isn't it? So the sutta states that "his consciousness changes but his consciousness doesn't change with the change in consciousness". Sounds paradox. But it isn't.

What is meant, IMO, is that there are two kinds of consciousness happening. The first one is linked to the arising objects (like the monkey holding the branches) and the second is free of this activity. The second one (here called "consciousness"; I don't know whether the Pali term is citta or vinanna) is that what gives rise to our good old "sati-sampajanna": Awareness, Clear Comprehending.

In what this sutta calls "an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person" the two consciousnesses alter in tandem, when the first changes so does the second. Thus awareness is consumed:
There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma ... His consciousness changes & is unstable. Because of the change & instability of consciousness, his consciousness alters in accordance with the change in consciousness. With the agitations born from the alteration in accordance with the change in consciousness and coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities, his mind stays consumed. And because of the consumption of awareness, he feels fearful, threatened, & solicitous.

"This, friends, is how agitation is caused by clinging/sustenance.
So there are two kinds of agitation. The first is known to everybody, including the "uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person", this is the agitation caused by the arising of different kinds of objects. But the other kind of agitation is caused by clinging, meaning by the absence of sati-sampajanna. The "run-of-the-mill person" does not discern between these two kinds of agitation because he does not know the second kind of "consciousness" that arises from not-clinging as the "instructed disciple of the noble ones" knows. For this second kind of person - the "instructed disciple of the noble ones" - the two consciousnesses do not arise and fall in tandem, their arising and falling is independent of each other, this is called "not-clinging".

This is, IMO, exactly what we try to accomplish in Theravada. Think of the Mahasi method: one walks and tries to stay aware of walking: two kinds of consciousness arise, one absorbed in the experience of the walking and the other is observing this consciousness of experience. The first changes (one foot, the other foot) but the other, the aware one, is stable, unchanging. And because of this stability of the second kind of consciousness the mind is not consumed.
"And how is non-agitation caused by lack of clinging/ sustenance? There is the case where an instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for nobles ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma ...

His consciousness changes & is unstable, but his consciousness doesn't — because of the change & instability of consciousness — alter in accordance with the change in consciousness. His mind is not consumed with any agitations born from an alteration in accordance with the change in consciousness or coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities. And because his awareness is not consumed, he feels neither fearful, threatened, nor solicitous.

"This, friends, is how non-agitation is caused by lack of clinging/sustenance.
This is a crucial point: The two kinds of consciousness, one experiencing and the other observing the experience. The second is a kind of Meta-consciousness. When people meditate they often think that the goal is an experience - like jhana. But Liberation is attained by detaching from experience, this does not mean that there is no experience any more but that there is this Meta-consciousness that observes all experience and can be stabilised through all kinds of experience.... well, this is not Liberation, yet, either, IMO, but it is the important accomplishment that leads to Liberation.

As to the Abhidhamma: to see change one needs a fix-point. A star-ship moving in free space can only be said to be moving when comparing the distance to something, like stars or galaxies. If everything moves in the same way, at the same speed, in the same direction all these definitions can't be used and the term "movement" or "change" becomes meaningless. Abhihamma talks about change in consciousness but here, too, one needs a fix-point for the term change to become meaningful. This fix-point is the stable sati-sampajanna awareness, the second kind of consciousness that is based on non-agitation caused by lack of clinging.

I think it is because of the seeming paradox - calling both "consciousness" - that some teachers prefer to give it other names. Thus I think it quite possible that Ahjan Sucitto means it - at least it fits the description.
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi there Freawaru,

The translation of MN138 by Ven Thanissaro:
His form changes & is unstable, but his consciousness doesn't — because of the change & instability of form — alter in accordance with the change in form. His mind is not consumed with any agitations born from an alteration in accordance with the change in form or coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities. And because his awareness is not consumed, he feels neither fearful, threatened, nor solicitous.
is translated by Vens Nanmoli/Bodhi as:
With the change and becoming otherwise of that material form, his consciousness is not preoccupied with that change of material form. Agitated mental states born of preoccupation with the change of material form do not arise together and remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is not obsessed, he is not anxious, distressed, and concerned, and due to non-clinging he does not become agitated.
Personally, I prefer the second. But I think they are actually saying the same thing.

Metta
Mike
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote: is translated by Vens Nanmoli/Bodhi as:
. . .
Personally, I prefer the second. But I think they are actually saying the same thing.
Ven Thanisaro's translatyion vary in quality from good to not so good. The above is a not so good. Vens Nanmoli/Bodhi gets at the meaning far better.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Hi there Freawaru,

The translation of MN138 by Ven Thanissaro:
His form changes & is unstable, but his consciousness doesn't — because of the change & instability of form — alter in accordance with the change in form. His mind is not consumed with any agitations born from an alteration in accordance with the change in form or coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities. And because his awareness is not consumed, he feels neither fearful, threatened, nor solicitous.
is translated by Vens Nanmoli/Bodhi as:
With the change and becoming otherwise of that material form, his consciousness is not preoccupied with that change of material form. Agitated mental states born of preoccupation with the change of material form do not arise together and remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is not obsessed, he is not anxious, distressed, and concerned, and due to non-clinging he does not become agitated.
Personally, I prefer the second. But I think they are actually saying the same thing.

Metta
Mike
Yes, I think they say the same, too. My interpretation works for both. The part for consciousness in the translation of Vens Nanmoli/Bodhi would be (substituting "material form" by "consciousness"):
With the change and becoming otherwise of that consciousness, his consciousness is not preoccupied with that change of consciousness. Agitated mental states born of preoccupation with the change of consciousness do not arise together and remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is not obsessed, he is not anxious, distressed, and concerned, and due to non-clinging he does not become agitated.
Same meaning as before: Consciousness is not preoccupied with change of consciousness thus mental states born from preoccupation do not arise. Stability. Non-agitation due to non-clinging :smile:

It is really something odd and I still find it hard to express. But the mind can do it. It can be simultaneously agitated and non-agitated, it can jump around or think nonsense and still be calm, concentrated. This is the difference between samatha and vipassana. When one just practices the jhanas one can reach states of calm born from prolonged concentration on one object, experience them. But with sati-sampajanna the mind can be calm even while there is agitation (as long as it is not the agitation born from clinging).
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by tiltbillings »

Freawaru wrote:Stability. Non-agitation due to non-clinging/
Stability does not mean that the mind (citta), which is a process, ceases to be a dynamic intedependent flow. It means - in the case of the arahant - it is no longer agitated by greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Freawaru wrote:Stability. Non-agitation due to non-clinging/
Stability does not mean that the mind (citta), which is a process, ceases to be a dynamic intedependent flow. It means - in the case of the arahant - it is no longer agitated by greed, hatred, and delusion.
Exactly! One kind of agitation still there but the other is gone. Looks like we are in agreement again. :smile:
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:
That may be more of a Zen/Dzogchen view, which can also be effective (at least in J. Goldstein's opinion) when put into practice. The challenge is to cultivate an alert and tranquil mind that does not cling to anything...
As I said to see change one needs some kind of fix point or coordinate system. Because change is defined in regard to stability. In the context of Dhamma I think there are two ways how to stabilise Awareness, either by recognising Awareness or by staying Aware of change. As far as I understand dzogchen uses the first and Theravada the second. Both work because they are the same mechanism. But there is a difficulty with the Dzogchen variation: as far as I know the "pointing out" is done during zhine (samatha) and during samatha both kinds of consciousness are calm. Both are not agitated. During samatha the concentration is stable on one object and the other stability, the Awareness, arises, too. So it is easy to confuse the two kinds of calm. Which is why the teacher is so important in these traditions. The Theravadan way is less easily misinterpreted because one has to stay stable to see directly change. The instruction: "stay aware of the change in form, perception, fabrication, and consciousness the moment they happen" can't be misinterpreted as far as I can see. What remains is how to arise and stabilise this Awareness...
Last edited by Freawaru on Thu May 06, 2010 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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