Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

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Yodsak
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Yodsak »

tiltbillings wrote:
Freawaru wrote:Stability. Non-agitation due to non-clinging/
Stability does not mean that the mind (citta), which is a process, ceases to be a dynamic intedependent flow. It means - in the case of the arahant - it is no longer agitated by greed, hatred, and delusion.
Let's all just let Arahang Tiltbillings win this one.
Sucitto and Thanissaro are 'obviously' well out of order. How dare they!

:roll:
kia kaha Buddhadhamma
Freawaru
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Freawaru »

Yodsak wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Freawaru wrote:Stability. Non-agitation due to non-clinging/
Stability does not mean that the mind (citta), which is a process, ceases to be a dynamic intedependent flow. It means - in the case of the arahant - it is no longer agitated by greed, hatred, and delusion.
Let's all just let Arahang Tiltbillings win this one.
Sucitto and Thanissaro are 'obviously' well out of order. How dare they!

:roll:
Hi Yodsak,

I do not understand you. Tilt said exactly what Vens. Sucitto and Thanissaro said, too. Different words, same meaning. I don't see any disagreement any more.
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Yodsak
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Yodsak »

Freawaru

It's OK to not understand.

I'm happy for you.

Just keep breathing, not papanca'ing.
kia kaha Buddhadhamma
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by tiltbillings »

Yodsak wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Freawaru wrote:Stability. Non-agitation due to non-clinging/
Stability does not mean that the mind (citta), which is a process, ceases to be a dynamic intedependent flow. It means - in the case of the arahant - it is no longer agitated by greed, hatred, and delusion.
Let's all just let Arahang Tiltbillings win this one.
Sucitto and Thanissaro are 'obviously' well out of order. How dare they!
Oh, dear, and this furthers the conversation how?

Just because some one is a bhikkhu you cannot disagree with them?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Goofaholix
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Goofaholix »

tiltbillings wrote:Oh, dear, and this furthers the conversation how?
Actually that's the exact same point I was trying to make when I butted into the thread.

If somebody wants to discuss a passage that contains a phrase that just doesn't seem to fit do we make that phrase the topic of the thread? or do we take it out and put it aside and discuss the passage as a whole without it?

I'd think the latter is more constructive and better for the discussion board and I'm surprised you don't see it that way, of course it doesn't help when people like me continue to feed it rather than ignore it and hope it goes away.

Christopher liked something about the passage and wanted to discuss it, 5 pages later I'm not sure whether he's had that opportunity.
tiltbillings wrote:Just because some one is a bhikkhu you cannot disagree with them?
I don't think he meant that.

However I do think 32 years of full time practice entitles him to the benefit of the doubt, not the assumption that he is pursuing a strategy of subliminally inserting non Buddhist concepts into the Buddhadhamma.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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retrofuturist
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Goofaholix,
Goofaholix wrote:If somebody wants to discuss a passage that contains a phrase that just doesn't seem to fit do we make that phrase the topic of the thread? or do we take it out and put it aside and discuss the passage as a whole without it?

I'd think the latter is more constructive and better for the discussion board and I'm surprised you don't see it that way, of course it doesn't help when people like me continue to feed it rather than ignore it and hope it goes away.
I haven't really been following the topic but my preference is for looking at the inconsistencies rather than brushing over them. Untangling the inconsistencies is often a very good way of learning, and for challenging our assumptions.

I'm sure Jesus said some pretty cool things, but you can't just take the good things and try to see them independently aside from the uncool things he said, or else you'll never understand the bigger picture they are intended to represent. If there is something flawed in the 'part', there is something flawed in the 'whole'.

To quote something Cooran just quoted elsewhere...
The Buddha always told people not to take his word, not to just believe because learned teachers taught something ~ he said "ehipassiko" ~

Ehipassiko
Ehipassiko constitutes an open invitation to all to come and see, to inspect, to scrutinize and if need be, even to criticize the Dhamma before accepting it because there is nothing mythical or mysterious about it.

The Dhamma is pure and crystal clear. It is as pure as solid gold. The Buddha Himself declared: "Do not accept what I say through mere respect towards me. Just as purity of gold is ascertained by melting or rubbing on a touchstone, likewise the Dhamma should be accepted only after very close scrutiny." This fearless assertion of allowing the teaching to be closely examined marks the greatness of the Buddha and the unwavering truth of the sublime Dhamma.
http://www.purifymind.com/Introduction.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not only should we critically inspect the Buddha's words, but of anyone who purports to be speaking the Dhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Goofaholix
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:I haven't really been following the topic but my preference is for looking at the inconsistencies rather than brushing over them. Untangling the inconsistencies is often a very good way of learning, and for challenging our assumptions.
I'm sure this is a good way of interpreting and understanding scripture. However a dhamma talk delivered from the heart without much preparation and transcribed without editing is bound to be riddled with inconsistencies, so what, it is meant to be inspiring rather than doctrine setting.

If one focusses on the inconsistencies one loses sight of the whole, if one loses sight of the whole how will one know what the inconsistencies were inconstistent with, one just loses the plot.
retrofuturist wrote:I'm sure Jesus said some pretty cool things, but you can't just take the good things and try to see them independently aside from the uncool things he said, or else you'll never understand the bigger picture they are intended to represent. If there is something flawed in the 'part', there is something flawed in the 'whole'.
The above is a good example, Ajahn Sucitto said nothing about Jesus.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Goofaholix,

Whether I listen to our read Dhamma, I'm interested in edification moreso than inspiration.

I grant that for others it may be different.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Goofaholix
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Goofaholix,

Whether I listen to our read Dhamma, I'm interested in edification moreso than inspiration.

I grant that for others it may be different.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I would have said those two terms were virtually synonymous. You are welcome to replace "inspiration" with "edification" in my post if you find it an inconsistency because to my mind the thrust of what I'm saying remains unchanged.

Certainly there would be no point in making an issue out of it would there? Doesn't Ajahn Sucitto deserve the same?
ed·i·fy 
–verb (used with object), -fied, -fy·ing.
to instruct or benefit, esp. morally or spiritually; uplift.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Goofaholix,

As mentioned earlier, I haven't been following the topic, I haven't even seen what Ajahn Sucitto said... I'm just saying that something shouldn't be exempt from critical examination simply because it is a bhikkhu speaking those words. I don't endorse or support Yosdak's indignance at critical examination of the Dhamma.
Let's all just let Arahang Tiltbillings win this one.
Sucitto and Thanissaro are 'obviously' well out of order. How dare they!
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Goofaholix,

As mentioned earlier, I haven't been following the topic, I haven't even seen what Ajahn Sucitto said... I'm just saying that something shouldn't be exempt from critical examination simply because it is a bhikkhu speaking those words. I don't endorse or support Yosdak's indignance at critical examination of the Dhamma.
Let's all just let Arahang Tiltbillings win this one.
Sucitto and Thanissaro are 'obviously' well out of order. How dare they!
Metta,
Retro. :)
I think Yosdak was more likely indignant about Tilt's approach on this thread, not about the critical examination of the Dhamma.

I could be wrong, but I think if you'd been following the topic you'd interpret it the same.

PS If you're wondering what Ajahn Sucitto said, Page 1 Post 1
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by tiltbillings »

Goofaholix wrote:
I think Yosdak was more likely indignant about Tilt's approach on this thread, not about the critical examination of the Dhamma.

I could be wrong, but I think if you'd been following the topic you'd interpret it the same.
Could be wrong? Most likely.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by christopher::: »

Goofaholix wrote:
Christopher liked something about the passage and wanted to discuss it, 5 pages later I'm not sure whether he's had that opportunity.
Actually, although we have gone off on side-tangents (occasionally) this conversation has been very helpful. But, yes, the question of Ajahn Sucitto's meaning may still be worth examining, for some of us...

What is he advising us to do? How do we avoid a fracturing of experience, self-making? Is he describing a process that is purely Theravadan, a blending with the way Mahayanan traditions approach this, or simply an example of common ground?

This is what realization and liberation are all about, no? Developing a non-clinging mind, present, compassionate, non-reactive, free of fetters...

Was just listening to another dhamma talk where Ajahn Sucitto comes back to this topic. Here's a transcript of the first 2 minutes...

"Cultivation of great heart, there is depth and also breadth. Depth you might say is finding a sense of presence, anchoring, that's not through tension or holding on to a view or idea or a position. It's just feeling the presence, your own steadiness, your own wholeness, your own- that which looks after you...

Your own sense of sampajāna, awareness, that knows you're here, that which receives all these impressions that happens to you, that which comes through every day, no matter what. We ground ourselves in that. This is the ground, or the foundation. Without this everything goes out of balance.

We breathe into that, breathe out into that, take refuge in that.

Simplicity. Real simplicity..."

~Ajahn Sucitto
2008-11-09 Taking A Drive Down The Road Of Self 68:09
:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Goofaholix
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by Goofaholix »

christopher::: wrote:
Goofaholix wrote:
Christopher liked something about the passage and wanted to discuss it, 5 pages later I'm not sure whether he's had that opportunity.
Actually, although we have gone off on side-tangents (occasionally) this conversation has been very helpful. But, yes, the question of Ajahn Sucitto's meaning may still be worth examining, for some of us...

What is he advising us to do? How do we avoid a fracturing of experience, self-making? Is he describing a process that is purely Theravadan, a blending with the way Mahayanan traditions approach this, or simply an example of common ground?

This is what realization and liberation are all about, no? Developing a non-clinging mind, present, compassionate, non-reactive, free of fetters...

Was just listening to another dhamma talk where Ajahn Sucitto comes back to this topic. Here's a transcript of the first 2 minutes...

"Cultivation of great heart, there is depth and also breadth. Depth you might say is finding a sense of presence, anchoring, that's not through tension or holding on to a view or idea or a position. It's just feeling the presence, your own steadiness, your own wholeness, your own- that which looks after you...

Your own sense of sampajāna, awareness, that knows you're here, that which receives all these impressions that happens to you, that which comes through every day, no matter what. We ground ourselves in that. This is the ground, or the foundation. Without this everything goes out of balance.

We breathe into that, breathe out into that, take refuge in that.

Simplicity. Real simplicity..."

~Ajahn Sucitto
2008-11-09 Taking A Drive Down The Road Of Self 68:09
:anjali:
He does use a lot of Mahayanist, and perhaps new agish, sounding language, but when I examine this passage and the first one I understand him saying much the same as many of my other teachers.

Maybe I'm just filtering it through my own understanding but I don't see him defining doctrines or phenomena, but rather defining a process and a state of mind.

A mind that is grounded and stable and resting in a broad inclusive awareness, much like the sky where different objects arise and pass away within the sky but the sky remains the stable backdrop. So the mind allows whatever objects that arise and pass away to do so without clinging, without trying to make something happen, without the mind following or going out to seek the objects.

As soon as the mind starts going out to seek the objects, starts trying to make something happen then ones practice gets fractured, ones practice gets dualistic.

This is very similar to how one of my teachers Sayadaw U Tejaniya teaches the practice, though without the fluffy language that might offend some people.

Here he talks about being grounded in awareness, wheras in the first passage he talks about losing your groundedness through attachment to calm and attachment to ideas, and the fragmentation that follows those attachments.

Then at the end he talks about taking refuge in awareness.

This I think stands to reason, because what does Buddha mean? It means the one who knows, so taking refuge in the Buddha is taking refuge in knowing or awareness, well that's my take on it anyway.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Ajahn Sucitto: Fragmentation & Distancing from Experience

Post by PeterB »

I do not know Ajahn Succito well, but I know him well enough to feel confident in saying that whatever you might think about his choice of words in this context, it certainly is not the result of any direct Mahayana influence...trust me. 8-)
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