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If a stream-winner... - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

If a stream-winner...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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salmon
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby salmon » Wed May 05, 2010 3:44 am

:goodpost: retro...

I think that should address quite a few of Virgo's points too?

I would come right out here and say that I have encountered ariyans and have learnt much about them and from their behaviour, but would you believe my claim? ;)

OT: A good read about a what a lay ariyan might appear to be like would be the autobiography of Dipa Ma. She's a legendary teacher of the modern day world. :reading:
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~

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Wind
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Wind » Wed May 05, 2010 4:10 am

The Buddha says the stream-winner may declare:

'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

That statement is from this sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Kenshou
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Kenshou » Wed May 05, 2010 4:20 am

I'd believe that you believe what you claim. :tongue:

I think that this has all been really over-romanticized. I don't believe that the requirements for stream-entry are anything that a diligent practitioner should not be able to achieve, and I am implying that I think such people exist. If I reach the end of this life without achieving that or more, then I'd be disappointed with myself.

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby mikenz66 » Wed May 05, 2010 5:23 am

Last edited by mikenz66 on Wed May 05, 2010 5:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 05, 2010 5:28 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Zhalmed Pawo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Zhalmed Pawo » Sat May 08, 2010 4:25 am


Reductor
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Reductor » Sat May 08, 2010 4:43 am


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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Sat May 08, 2010 7:04 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Zhalmed Pawo » Sat May 08, 2010 10:41 am


rowyourboat
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby rowyourboat » Sat May 08, 2010 11:25 am

I have been puzzling about the precept issue of stream entrants for years.The suttas suggest that it is impossible to for a stream entrant to perform the really terrible deeds in retro's post above. However the description of the usual five precepts does says 'unbroken, unsplattered' etc. This method of describing suggests to me (I wonder if it is a particularly asian way of describing something) that his conduct in terms of precepts is 'not extremely bad'. However this should not be an excuse to break them. It is notable that there are no examples of stream entrants breaking precepts either (sarkani became a stream entrant at the point of death -due to drinking?!- and was a faith follower before this destined to become a stream entrant in his current life).

Shame and fear of wrong doing becomes an important factor in achieving non-returner stages according to some suttas. I think there is something about linking negative core beliefs ('I am a bad person') with acts based on craving,aversion and delusion ('..if I do') ie- developing hiri-otappa (shame and fear of wrongdoing).

The arahanth is incapable of breaking the five precepts according to the suttas (sorry no quotes available to hand).

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby rowyourboat » Sat May 08, 2010 11:30 am

avecca-pasadh- translated into verified confidence, also unshakeable confidence/faith call it what you will (but not blind faith)- after seeing from their own experience that there is an escape from the samsara-the rounds of existence. it would be like a man in a desert being told the way to an oasis- having gone there and quenching his thirst has confidence/faith/delight in the man who gave him instructions on how to get there.

with metta
:anjali:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Sat May 08, 2010 12:43 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Zom
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Zom » Sat May 08, 2010 1:19 pm


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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Sat May 08, 2010 1:23 pm

Greetings Zom,

Interesting - thanks for sharing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Zhalmed Pawo
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Zhalmed Pawo » Sat May 08, 2010 9:39 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby retrofuturist » Sat May 08, 2010 11:37 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Parth
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Parth » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:02 pm

The sotapati maggatha person and sotapati falath person while being two are essentially one since a person is a sotapati maggatha person only for split of second or something like that just when he relaises the fruitation.

regards
Parth

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Alex123
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:42 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

dhamma follower
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby dhamma follower » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:09 am

Dear all,

There's booklet titled "what is Buddhism" in wich Ajhan Naeb, a lay woman who taught meditation at Boonkanjanaram center in Pattaya in the 60s to 80s. In one interview in this book, she recalls vividly her four months of practice before attaining Nibbana for the first time, then a second time afterwards. It is very inspiring and informative. Obviously, there's such a certainty about the experience that we understand why doubt is erased. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find an internet version of it. They told me the booklets can be bought in some bookshops in Bangkok, but I don't know which one exactly. The best would be go to practice there and get the book, or better still, "get" Nibbana so you don't need the book anymore :smile:

D.F.

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mikenz66
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Re: If a stream-winner...

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:07 am

Thanks DF,

Ajahn Naeb is in Jack Kornfield's book on "Living Buddhist Masters", which I think has changed name as many are no longer living. You can read the section here:
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=8InE ... eb&f=false

Khun Sujin (some followers of whom can be found on the yahoo group ) was one of her students.

Mike


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