Adhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dan74
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Re: Adhamma

Post by Dan74 »

Hi Retro!

Are you arguing for a uniform curriculum, where graduation is enlightenment? Kind of the opposite to Krishnamurti's pathless land?

But the Buddha did not teach like that and there are records of him giving the most bare essentials to newcomers. For some it was all that they needed. For others it was the first step.

Right View is often built up gradually not swallowed up in one gulp. We can read 10 books about the Right View and in the end have a mental picture and yet our conduct may be radically (or subtly) at odds with it. It develops with wisdom, deepens and penetrates every aspect of our lives.

I am not arguing against the Right View, just that "to everything its season."
_/|\_
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retrofuturist
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Re: Adhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,

Apologies, I actually quoted a different sutta to that which I intended to quote. This is the one I was thinking of.

SN 45.1
"Bhikkhus, ignorance is the forerunner in the entry upon unwholesome states, with shamelessness and fearlessness of wrongdoing following along. For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up. For one of wrong view, wrong intention springs up. For one of wrong intention, wrong speech springs up. For one of wrong speech, wrong action springs up. For one of wrong action, wrong livelihood springs up. For one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort springs up. For one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness springs up. For one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration springs up.

Bhikkhus, true knowledge is the forerunner in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing following along. For a wise person who has arrived at true knowledge, right view springs up. For one of right view, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up."
Bhikkhu Bodhi : Connected Discourses, page 1523.

Does that more directly address your question?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Goofaholix
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Re: Adhamma

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,

That might work outside the Dhamma, but in the Dhammavinaya, Right View is the forerunner to Right Mindfulness.
In the context of a daylong retreat with students at various levels from beginners to very experienced how would you recommend a teacher impart right view so that they can be qualified to begin mindfulness practice?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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retrofuturist
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Re: Adhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Goofaholix,
Goofaholix wrote:In the context of a daylong retreat with students at various levels from beginners to very experienced how would you recommend a teacher impart right view so that they can be qualified to begin mindfulness practice?
I don't know, I'm not a teacher... but the Four Noble Truths sounds like a decent place to start.

It doesn't have to be long... just long enough to improve the chances of them dwelling in Right Mindfulness, instead of Wrong Mindfulness. If they're going to sit there in Wrong Mindfulness they're wasting their time. Those who were more knowledgeable would probably appreciate the refresher and would have more respect for the teacher (thereby avoiding Khalil Bodhi's predicament) seeing that the teacher does not teach independently of Right View.

If there is no Right View, they may as well be doing Hindu or Christian meditation for all the good it will do them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
PeterB
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Re: Adhamma

Post by PeterB »

It is not unknown for some meditation centres to offer meditation classes only after they are satisfied that the inquirer has some of the basics such as the 4NT, 8FP etc.
Meditation on the breath is after all just one one wing of the house which also includes sila, Metta Bhavana etc
Meditation practise detached from the rest of the 8FP can be just be a mechanistic self help excercise.
There is nothing magicical about it. It does not awaken some intrinsic pre-existing state.
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Re: Adhamma

Post by PeterB »

You dont memntion the background of the teacher Khalil Bodhi. But I wonder if this is not another Theravada/Mahayana issue.
The two biggest Monastic Theravada centres in the South East Uk both offer day retreats. But in both cases I think I am right in saying they are not open to anyone who walks in. They are not advertised to the public. You get to know about them by being known to the Sangha..
There are several centres offering Vipassana courses but they require an application form .
In the case of the monastic led day retreats and all Vipassana courses I have had experience of, they start with taking Refuge and the Five or often Eight, Precepts.
PeterB
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Re: Adhamma

Post by PeterB »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Goofaholix,
Goofaholix wrote:In the context of a daylong retreat with students at various levels from beginners to very experienced how would you recommend a teacher impart right view so that they can be qualified to begin mindfulness practice?
I don't know, I'm not a teacher... but the Four Noble Truths sounds like a decent place to start.

It doesn't have to be long... just long enough to improve the chances of them dwelling in Right Mindfulness, instead of Wrong Mindfulness. If they're going to sit there in Wrong Mindfulness they're wasting their time. Those who were more knowledgeable would probably appreciate the refresher and would have more respect for the teacher (thereby avoiding Khalil Bodhi's predicament) seeing that the teacher does not teach independently of Right View.

If there is no Right View, they may as well be doing Hindu or Christian meditation for all the good it will do them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Quite so. With refernce to Krishnamurtis " Pathless Path " ( above ) that could almost stand as a negative statement concerning what The Way of The Elders is not.
I think it may have to be considered that there is the the possibility that Theravadins actually know rather a lot about their own tradition. Well meaning though it might be to explain it to us.
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mikenz66
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Re: Adhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: I don't know, I'm not a teacher... but the Four Noble Truths sounds like a decent place to start.

It doesn't have to be long... just long enough to improve the chances of them dwelling in Right Mindfulness, instead of Wrong Mindfulness. ...
Different teachers have their own way of introducing Dhamma. I wouldn't like to second-guess anyone in particular. The better ones figure out what works for the particular students they are dealing with.

I certainly agree with Peter that the 4NT, etc need to be brought in, but my observation, based on sitting through, and sometimes assisting with, 1-2 hour evening sessions at my Wat is that a starting a session with a "short introduction to the Four Noble Truths" in such a situation is not an easy thing to pull off. All you need is one wise guy who starts arguing with the concept that craving leads to suffering, etc and you have half an hour of pointless argument. (Just like on the Internet... :))

What I've seen some teachers do with some success is to start off with some simple ideas that are easy for the skeptics to accept, such as:
"The Buddha told us to investigate our experience, so we're going to spend 15 minutes walking then 15 minutes sitting..."
After that the teaching proceeds by asking questions (what did you feel when you were sitting?, Did you want to change position? Did changing position make the pain go away?) and the 4NT can be brought in in response to the (usually rather predictable) answers.

Mike
PeterB
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Re: Adhamma

Post by PeterB »

I do see the problem Mike..but given the fact that all vipassana courses..Buddhist ones I mean not ones that have been divorced from their origin..begin with the Refuges and Precepts, it seems to me a good thing, and possibly a neccessary thing, for people to have some idea what that are saying..
There are exceptions. One of the London Wats has regular open days during which they give a " taster" of Vipassana of Walking Practice and so on.
But for longer courses the Refuges and Precepts are required. And required in an informed way.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Adhamma

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:I don't know, I'm not a teacher... but the Four Noble Truths sounds like a decent place to start.

It doesn't have to be long... just long enough to improve the chances of them dwelling in Right Mindfulness, instead of Wrong Mindfulness. If they're going to sit there in Wrong Mindfulness they're wasting their time. Those who were more knowledgeable would probably appreciate the refresher and would have more respect for the teacher (thereby avoiding Khalil Bodhi's predicament) seeing that the teacher does not teach independently of Right View.
Ideally the 4NT should be understood as the basis of practice, I would certainly be more than concerned if a teacher discounted it.

However I don't see Right View as being so black and white, most people don't have a right view switch, most people don't have a conversion experience as their first step on the path.

Right View evolves over time, it evolves out of observing the consequences of wrong view, out of trying to do the practice with whatever views and baggage one brings to the practice and seeing the limitations of that.

For example somebody arrives at the daylong with the view that he is a self and things are permanent and meditation is for relaxation, should he blindly believe what the teacher tells him? should he just be turned away at the door?

No he starts practising mindfulness (or maybe something else), he starts observing the changeability and impersonal nature of his experience he starts seeing the limitations of his wrong view and his view gradually changes, as his view changes other factors of the path fall in line with it.
retrofuturist wrote: If there is no Right View, they may as well be doing Hindu or Christian meditation for all the good it will do them.
Yes, just like Gotama Siddhatha did during his years as a wandering ascetic
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Adhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:I do see the problem Mike..but given the fact that all vipassana courses..Buddhist ones I mean not ones that have been divorced from their origin..begin with the Refuges and Precepts, it seems to me a good thing, and possibly a neccessary thing, for people to have some idea what that are saying..
Sure, but I tried to make it clear that I was talking specifically about walk-in evening sessions. If someone (such as myself) is then interested enough to come for a weekend they have to take the Refuges and 10 Precepts from the Abbot (which I still find somewhat scary... Some Thai monks have a knack of going from joking around to dead serious in next to no time when the occasion calls for it... :anjali: )

Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: Adhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Goofaholix,
Goofaholix wrote: For example somebody arrives at the daylong with the view that he is a self and things are permanent and meditation is for relaxation, should he blindly believe what the teacher tells him? should he just be turned away at the door?

No he starts practising mindfulness (or maybe something else), he starts observing the changeability and impersonal nature of his experience he starts seeing the limitations of his wrong view and his view gradually changes, as his view changes other factors of the path fall in line with it
I agree. We had one memorable session when my teacher bounced off some question or other and used it to launch into a variation on the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta. It would not have worked at all well if he'd tried to explain it before the walking and sitting...

Mike
PeterB
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Re: Adhamma

Post by PeterB »

Goofaholix wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I don't know, I'm not a teacher... but the Four Noble Truths sounds like a decent place to start.

It doesn't have to be long... just long enough to improve the chances of them dwelling in Right Mindfulness, instead of Wrong Mindfulness. If they're going to sit there in Wrong Mindfulness they're wasting their time. Those who were more knowledgeable would probably appreciate the refresher and would have more respect for the teacher (thereby avoiding Khalil Bodhi's predicament) seeing that the teacher does not teach independently of Right View.
Ideally the 4NT should be understood as the basis of practice, I would certainly be more than concerned if a teacher discounted it.

However I don't see Right View as being so black and white, most people don't have a right view switch, most people don't have a conversion experience as their first step on the path.

Right View evolves over time, it evolves out of observing the consequences of wrong view, out of trying to do the practice with whatever views and baggage one brings to the practice and seeing the limitations of that.

For example somebody arrives at the daylong with the view that he is a self and things are permanent and meditation is for relaxation, should he blindly believe what the teacher tells him? should he just be turned away at the door?

No he starts practising mindfulness (or maybe something else), he starts observing the changeability and impersonal nature of his experience he starts seeing the limitations of his wrong view and his view gradually changes, as his view changes other factors of the path fall in line with it.
retrofuturist wrote: If there is no Right View, they may as well be doing Hindu or Christian meditation for all the good it will do them.
Yes, just like Gotama Siddhatha did during his years as a wandering ascetic
Which has resulted in a situation whereby we dont have to reinvent the Wheel Of Dhamma.
It i still there even for those of us with dust in our eyes.
PeterB
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Re: Adhamma

Post by PeterB »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:I do see the problem Mike..but given the fact that all vipassana courses..Buddhist ones I mean not ones that have been divorced from their origin..begin with the Refuges and Precepts, it seems to me a good thing, and possibly a neccessary thing, for people to have some idea what that are saying..
Sure, but I tried to make it clear that I was talking specifically about walk-in evening sessions. If someone (such as myself) is then interested enough to come for a weekend they have to take the Refuges and 10 Precepts from the Abbot (which I still find somewhat scary... Some Thai monks have a knack of going from joking around to dead serious in next to no time when the occasion calls for it... :anjali: )

Mike
Yes that is a similar situation to the one in which I learned.

:anjali:
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Dan74
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Re: Adhamma

Post by Dan74 »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,

Apologies, I actually quoted a different sutta to that which I intended to quote. This is the one I was thinking of.

SN 45.1
"Bhikkhus, ignorance is the forerunner in the entry upon unwholesome states, with shamelessness and fearlessness of wrongdoing following along. For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up. For one of wrong view, wrong intention springs up. For one of wrong intention, wrong speech springs up. For one of wrong speech, wrong action springs up. For one of wrong action, wrong livelihood springs up. For one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort springs up. For one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness springs up. For one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration springs up.

Bhikkhus, true knowledge is the forerunner in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing following along. For a wise person who has arrived at true knowledge, right view springs up. For one of right view, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up."
Bhikkhu Bodhi : Connected Discourses, page 1523.

Does that more directly address your question?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hmmm....

Well, do you think you can have the Right View without right livelihood, right mindfulness and right concentration, for instance? Surely this linear scheme is a simplification.

But I am not entirely sure where the difference in views lies. KB was unhappy with a teacher who seemingly "dumbed down" Dhamma to mindfulness of the breath. Now if that's all he teaches, then his "Buddhism" is rather limited, I agree. All I meant was that in that particular instance that may have been the right advice (as Goofaholix described in more detail above). Is this controversial?
_/|\_
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