the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Pannapetar
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Pannapetar »

retrofuturist wrote:In short, let's just say, there is (dependently originated) suffering in this lifetime and that is not the slightest bit proof for a doctrine of future lives.
I am getting the impression that you let your bias about the rebirth issue affect your understanding of dependent origination. So, I am trying to phrase this as carefully as I can.

First, dependent origination is an analysis of samsara. It describes how samsara (conditioned existence) arises and how it is held together. Since conditioned existence is characterised by the three marks, dependent origination is likewise an analysis of dukkha, anatta, and anicca, correct?

Second, dependent origination is circular, connected, and interdependent. This is to say that the twelve nidanas are causally connected and that the last nidana links to the first one, correct? Furthermore, if we delete any single nidana of the twelve nidanas then the connection is broken and the model is compromised, correct?

Third, the eleventh nidana is called jati which means birth. It is the point where kamma comes to fruition. Because dependent origination is circular, birth is synonymous with rebirth, correct?

If you can accept these premises then it follows logically that if you take out jati (the eleventh nidana) and remove it from the model of dependent origination, the model becomes compromised. From this follows that the chain is broken, and that there is no more conditioned existence. And from this follows that there is no dukkha, q.e.d.

In other words: rebirth is a requirement for conditioned existence, and since conditioned existence implies dukkha, rebirth is also a requirement for dukkha.

Was that clear?
retrofuturist wrote:Ontology? Who needs that? No, seriously.
Ontology is just a word that philosophers use to classify certain sets of statements. Dukkha, anicca, anatta are ontological statements. Such words make it easier to communicate, and to know what we are talking about. That's all there is to it.

Cheers, Thomas
Last edited by Pannapetar on Wed May 12, 2010 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by PeterB »

Alex123 wrote:
PeterB wrote:So Pannapetar how have you arrived at your very clear view of Rebirth ? Is it as a direct seeing resulting from meditation practice or is it a shared belief ?
I am not Pannapetar but this is my answer.

I believe in Buddha. Some of his things I know and see. There is a lot of validity in other things. I extrapolate this to include belief in literal rebirth, even though I don't have direct experience of it yet. I believe that Buddha has more wisdom than I or some rebirth sceptics, and so I side with Him.

I also apply pascal's wager to the issue of rebirth.


With metta,

Alex
I have another take on Pascal's wager Alex.
I have no idea if the doctrine of Rebirth refers to a literal post mortem state.
I have been meditating for many years and still have no personal experience of its literal truth or untruth.
Whats more the people who most influnce me in the world of Buddhadhamma will not be drawn on the subject. For example if you ( anyone ) try to get a definitive answer on the subject from Luang Por Sumedho you will be directed back to your cushion...
But what I do know is that I have derived great benefit from meditation..in particular from Vipassana.
Not just relaxation, at times it has been the reverse of that..but in seeing clearly even if in a limited way..the truth of Dukkha, of Anicca, and to some degree of Anatta..
What happens post mortem is at the moment not my concern.
I have quite enough to be getting on with.
So Vipassana is my Pascals Wager..
If literal Rebirth happens then I will have prepared for it in accordance with the Buddhas teaching.
If not then I will have had a richer life.

:anjali:
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Pannapetar
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Pannapetar »

PeterB wrote:What happens post mortem is at the moment not my concern. I have quite enough to be getting on with.
Excuses, excuses, excuses... Of course some people have developed the skill of a magician when explaining away the obvious.

However, we all have to come to terms with death. I suggest to start now.

Cheers, Thomas
PeterB
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by PeterB »

I have done what I vowed never to do again..I have been drawn into another bloody Rebirth debate !!!! :tongue:
Invariably they become "he said she said" Both sides take their stance.. The contrarians then line up to support whichever position is most contrary to the current thread..And its Game On.
Having made my own fuzzy, inadequate, position as clear as I can..I will stick to my vow and withdraw.

Metta to all.

:anjali:
PeterB
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by PeterB »

Pannapetar wrote:
PeterB wrote:What happens post mortem is at the moment not my concern. I have quite enough to be getting on with.
Excuses, excuses, excuses... Of course some people have developed the skill of a magician when explaining away the obvious.

However, we all have to come to terms with death. I suggest to start now.

Cheers, Thomas
As Thomas, I have an inoperable tumour which is likely to shorten my life, I have a lot of motivation to contemplate death on a daily basis. Just as i have all my adult life.
:anjali:
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

PeterB wrote:
Pannapetar wrote:
PeterB wrote:What happens post mortem is at the moment not my concern. I have quite enough to be getting on with.
Excuses, excuses, excuses... Of course some people have developed the skill of a magician when explaining away the obvious.

However, we all have to come to terms with death. I suggest to start now.

Cheers, Thomas
As Thomas, I have an inoperable tumour which is likely to shorten my life, I have a lot of motivation to contemplate death on a daily basis. Just as i have all my adult life.
:anjali:

Me too, Peter, I have an inoperable tumour in my spinal chord. I've known about it for several years ....but no paralysis so far, so life is good . If I try to practice Buddha Dhamma right now, why worry about rebirth and miss out on the freshness of the present ! :)



:hug:


.
PeterB
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by PeterB »

:hug:

I would rather not have it..I would love to see my greatgrandchildren. But I have the privilege of knowing my grandchildren.
And it a wonderful Dhamma teacher..
The poet Christopher Fry wrote " events become soul-sized ". If we interpret "soul" in amore Buddhist way it has real resonance for me.

Anyway I am outa this thread ! :lol:
Shonin
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Shonin »

PeterB wrote:I have done what I vowed never to do again..I have been drawn into another bloody Rebirth debate !!!!
Me too!

The Great Vow:
Rebirth debates, no matter how numerous, I vow to ignore them all
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Shonin wrote:
PeterB wrote:I have done what I vowed never to do again..I have been drawn into another bloody Rebirth debate !!!!
Me too!

The Great Vow:
Rebirth debates, no matter how numerous, I vow to ignore them all

:toast:


.
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pannapetar,
Pannapetar wrote:I am getting the impression that you let your bias about the rebirth issue affect your understanding of dependent origination.
:rofl:

What bias is that, then?
First, dependent origination is an analysis of samsara.
Find me a sutta that says that.

I'll find one that says this...

SN 12.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
Pannapetar wrote:It describes how samsara (conditioned existence) arises and how it is held together.
You are objectifying "samsara (conditioned existence)" as something objective rather than seeing it as something based on your ignorance which causes you to suffer. Whilst you study it "from afar" you will not understand.
Pannapetar wrote:Since conditioned existence is characterised by the three marks, dependent origination is likewise an analysis of dukkha, anatta, and anicca, correct?
Correct.
Pannapetar wrote:Second, dependent origination is circular
Wrong - show me a sutta that says dukkha is a condition for ignorance.
Pannapetar wrote:[DO is...] connected, and interdependent. This is to say that the twelve nidanas are causally connected and that the last nidana links to the first one, correct?
No. Wrong.
Pannapetar wrote:Furthermore, if we delete any single nidana of the twelve nidanas then the connection is broken and the model is compromised, correct?
You've already compromised it so much it's hard to answer your question.
Pannapetar wrote:Third, the eleventh nidana is called jati which means birth. It is the point where kamma comes to fruition. Because dependent origination is circular, birth is synonymous with rebirth, correct?
Wrong. Do you think kamma only comes to fruition in the next life?
Pannapetar wrote:If you can accept these premises then it follows logically....
Well, it goes without saying I don't.
Pannapetar wrote:In other words: rebirth is a requirement for conditioned existence
Sorry, I don't mean to laugh... but it's hard not to. You're so adamant you're right when you're so far off the mark, yet you're trying to turn it around to suggest you're right, and anyone else who doesn't fanatically chant rebirth from the rafters is some kind of heretic.
Pannapetar wrote:and since conditioned existence implies dukkha, rebirth is also a requirement for dukkha.
:toilet:
Pannapetar wrote:Was that clear?
As mud.

I'm sorry Pannapetar... I cannot in good faith continue this discussion with you as your understanding of dependent origination, suffering and the whole point of the Dhamma is so totally removed from my own understanding that there is no point in continuing any form of dialogue.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Pannapetar
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Pannapetar »

Cheers Retro,

I'll briefly address your objections. (1) The point about ojectification is irrelevant. (2) Dependent origination is circular, but my argument does not even require causal circularity. Interdependence is sufficient, because interdependence implies that if you remove any of the links the model is compromised and dependent origination is broken. (3) Kamma comes to fruition at any time. This life, next life, another life. The point of birth is one such point and a distinctly marked one. (4) All nidanas are required for samsara to arise.

None of your objections are valid.

You cannot remove rebirth from dependent origination while keeping the cycle intact. Without rebirth no dependent origination. Without dependent origination no conditioned existence. Without conditioned existence no suffering. It is actually quite simple.

Cheers, Thomas
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Thomas,

I acknowledge reading your post, but have nothing to say on it for the reasons stated above.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Pannapetar
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Pannapetar »

retrofuturist wrote:I acknowledge reading your post, but have nothing to say on it for the reasons stated above.
You are an intelligent person with many good qualities. Yet you contradict yourself to the last. You just informed me that you would not read my posts any longer and then you say that you read my post. :thinking:

It would serve you to know when you have lost an argument.

Never mind. Please choose as you like. I will certainly continue reading your contributions, as they are often insightful.

Cheers, Thomas
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Thomas,

There is no winning and losing in the Dhamma.

This reading material might be helpful for you.

At the first link I suggest you look at CH 5 'Other Interpretations' where an example of Dependent Origination in everyday life is given.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nation.htm

You might also like to read this:

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... uppada.htm

This:

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ebirth.pdf

and this:

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ddhism.pdf




:)
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Pannapetar
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Pannapetar »

Aloka wrote:There is no winning and losing in the Dhamma.
Quite right. But your empirical (not-)self can still engage in imaginary winning and losing. :tongue:
Aloka wrote:At the first link I suggest you look at CH 5 'Other Interpretations' where an example of Dependent Origination in everyday life is given.
Just to prevent misunderstandings, I should mention that I am aware of alternative interpretations, the momentary arising of the nidanas, and so on, but I also think that these are compatible with the conventional interpretation. Dependent origination is a universal principle and it works on different levels. In my understanding, the definition of a human lifetime as for the purpose of the illustration of dependent origination is a purposeful though ultimately arbitrary choice.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nation.htm

Thank you, Aloka, I'm much obliged. This looks like a valuable resource. I have still an incomplete essay about dependent origination somewhere in my drawers. Hence, I am always looking for good material on the topic. This seems like one.

Cheers, Thomas
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