Why learn Pali?

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
Anicca
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Anicca »

Hi Dmytro,
Dmytro wrote:Pali is now presented as not a language of the Buddha - but have you seen a single sensible and conclusive evidence of that?
Nothing seems conclusive - what i think is sensible is subjective and lacks objectivity, i assure you.
Dmytro wrote:Nobody really cares that there wasn't a 'Noble Truth' in the Buddha's teaching
Obviously someone does care.
Dmytro wrote:Or do you know, for example, that according to the Commentaries (Dhammasangani-Atthakatha 200, etc.) jhana in Anapanasati is a subtype of air kasina practice?
No - there are huge gaps in my knowledge.
Dmytro wrote:Nobody in the West really cares about the Pali Commentaries. They are instead often bashed without reading, to free the space for the 'independent original thought'.
I can be fooled - but i thought they were studied and when compared to the suttas, if they are in disagreement, then they were questioned - but only when they disagree with the suttas. The appeal of Theravada to this westerner is hardly 'independent original thought'.
Dmytro wrote:The Western 'mindfulness of breathing' is mostly just a fuzzy method of 'stress reduction'. Just keep attention focused below the nose, and the rest will sometimes happen all by itself. No need to know more details.
I have been so bombarded by so many differing descriptions from simple to detailed - jhana has been defined so distinctly different by different teachers and nimitta - sheesh - when i heard of the jhana headaches - sorry - i just had to laugh.
Dmytro wrote:The few Western people I know who get far along the Path are studying at least the essential Pali terms.
Could you point to a good list of the essentials?

Thank you, Dmytro

Metta
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19944
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by mikenz66 »

Tilt, Dmytro,
tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote: Nobody in the West really cares about the Pali Commentaries. They are instead often bashed without reading, to free the space for the 'independent original thought'.
Part of the problem is that the commentaries are written in a form of Pali that is not easy to learn. It would be good if the primary commentaries all were available to us in toto.
Aside from the learning Pali aspect, I feel it is strange that more people don't at least read some of the classical commentaries that are readily available in English: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 340#p65535" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Whereas they seem happy to read hundreds of pages of modern commentary. When one only sees snippets from the commentaries in footnotes to translations, stripped of the context, I think that it's easy to get some wrong impressions about what the commentaries are trying to do.

Mike
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:When one only sees snippets from the commentaries in footnotes to translations, stripped of the context, I think that it's easy to get some wrong impressions about what the commentaries are trying to do.

Mike
I would trust the Ven Bodhi does right by the commentaries when he refers to them, quotes and even as might differ with them.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19944
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:When one only sees snippets from the commentaries in footnotes to translations, stripped of the context, I think that it's easy to get some wrong impressions about what the commentaries are trying to do.

Mike
I would trust the Ven Bodhi does right by the commentaries when he refers to them, quotes and even as might differ with them.
Sorry, clearly I wasn't explaining myself well. I do trust Bhikkhu Bodhi to extract most of the important things from the Commentaries. However, if one hasn't looked at at least a few commentaries in full and just sees one of these these footnotes then it is sometimes seems like it has come out of nowhere and it is hard to appreciate that it is just a sentence or two out of a commentary that is several times the size of the sutta and that it probably makes a lot more sense when seen in context.

Mike
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Actually K.R. Norman does a decent job at looking a Pali, putting is a bit later than the Buddha.
IMHO, the arguments of K.R. Norman are well summarized and dealt with in the article:

The Buddha Spoke Pāli
Stefan Karpik

http://pali.nibbanam.com/kosalan.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is hardly an accurate reflection of Buddhism in China, and far as the West is concerned, it is not that black and white either.
Well, if you look in more detail at the history of Buddhism in China, there are more interesting parallels with the development of Buddhism in the West, - from the early translations with the usage of Taoist or Christian terms, to the gradual development of totally new schools, aligned to local mentality.

Metta, Dmytro
Last edited by Assaji on Fri May 04, 2012 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Actually K.R. Norman does a decent job at looking a Pali, putting is a bit later than the Buddha.
IMHO, the arguments of K.R. Norman are well summarized and dealt with in the article:

The Buddha Spoke Pāli
Stefan Karpik

http://www.insightmeditation.org/dharme ... il2006.doc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Considering the extent of Norman's article, not very well.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Anicca,
Dmytro wrote:The few Western people I know who get far along the Path are studying at least the essential Pali terms.
Could you point to a good list of the essentials?
Rupert Gethin describes in detail the key terms in his excellent book "The Buddhist Path to Awakening: A Study of the Bodhi-Pakkhiya Dhamma".

One can start from the elemnts of Conditioned Arising http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and use the Nyanatiloka's dictionary http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The Path to Freedom" does a good job, with Pali terms in parentheses: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

Metta, Dmytro
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by PeterB »

If everyone who used the forum knew the Pali for the key concepts there would be less traffic on Dhamma Wheel. Whether that is a good or bad thing I leave to others.
:smile:

One of my teachers used to say " most of the time the answer lies in helping the questioner properly frame the question, then it more or less answers itself"..
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Actually K.R. Norman does a decent job at looking a Pali, putting is a bit later than the Buddha.
IMHO, the arguments of K.R. Norman are well summarized and dealt with in the article:

The Buddha Spoke Pāli
Stefan Karpik

http://www.insightmeditation.org/dharme ... il2006.doc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Considering the extent of Norman's article, not very well.
Well, to add an extent, I'll just formulate clearly my opinion: the Pali of Sutta and Vinaya is mostly obviously stylized according to the needs or oral transmission, but the early verse texts, like Suttanipata, preserve the language which Buddha spoke.

The detailed arguments (affinity to the language of the Jain Canon, Ardha-Magadhi, etc.) are well formulated by the Wilhelm Geiger
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/5761" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dhammapada verse 103:

103. Yo sahassaṃ sahassena, saṅgāme mānuse jine;
Ekañca jeyyamattānaṃ, sa ve saṅgāmajuttamo.

Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men,
is he who would conquer just one — himself.

Jain Samana sutta 125:

Jo sahassam sahassanam, samgame dujjae jine.
Egam jinejja appanam, esa se paramo jao. (125)

One may conquer thousands and thousands of enemies in an invincible battle;
but the supreme victory consists in conquest over one's self.

http://www.jainworld.com/scriptures/samansuttam10.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:. . .
That's fine. Still, given the carefully spelled out detail in Norman's article, it is just not going to brushed aside by a few paragraphs. The question I have is do I want to get into this: is it important enough to eat up the time required? Probably not. Though I'd be more than happy to see a sustained argument countering Norman by someone on his level. It is enough to acknowledge that there are differing opinions.

If the Buddha did not speak what we call Pali, which likely he did not, there is no doubt, given the nature of the prakrits at that time, he would have easily understood it. Pali certainly is not an artificial languange; it was certainly a spoken language carrying the markers of differing dialects as well as Vedic Sanskrit.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by PeterB »

Also, like Sanskrit, Pali is a meta- language that constructs and deconstructs its own self while in use.

See Lings Martin. " Ancient Belief And Modern Superstition ".
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Kare »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Thomas,

I like to understand key individual terms, because some of them are quite deep in their meaning and are translated differently by different translators (e.g. sankhara, dukkha, jati, bhava, namarupa) so my interest is in trying to understand the words. The sentence construction, grammar and so on isn't of so much interest to me yet, in terms of return for effort.
The sentence construction and the grammar are just as important as the individual terms. Let's say you find a sentence containing the words "man", "eat" and "tiger". The grammar tells us who eats whom, a small detail which in fact is rather important for the meaning of the sentence.

Learning only individual terms puts you on level with a speaker of Pidgin English. You can convey and understand some words, but all the finer details escape you.
Mettāya,
Kåre
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Kare »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Pannapetar wrote: Life is short and learning Pali takes long. Looking at the cost/benefit analysis, I can think of very few (actually none) arguments that speak in favour of it. So, why learn Pali? I wish to understand the motives. What brought you to learn it? Looking forward to your replies.
Hi Thomas,

A good source for supporting your argument may be here:

I allow you, O Bhikkhus, to learn the word of the Buddhas each in his own dialect.” Cullavaga, Vinaya
This is a sentence and an argument that should be used with greatest care. The Pali in fact says something like this: "I allow you to learn the word of the Buddna in 'own-language' ..."

And it is open to interpretation if he meant "The Buddha's own language" (Pali. The commentary goes for this interpretation.) or "each one's own language" (most modern people go for this interpretation).

So this saying is not clear. If you are able to read it in Pali, you will not so easily be caught by the one or the other transalation.
Mettāya,
Kåre
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Kare »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Anicca wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Buddha himself said:
"I ordain the words of Buddha to be learnt in _his_ own language (i.e.Magadhi, the language used by Buddha himself)."
<i.e.Magadhi - the "holy" language>
:juggling:
Momma told me there would be days like this.
:shrug: Magadhi is not spoken or used today. It is Pali that is studied because that is what the ancient texts are in. The oldest teachings of the Buddha are in the Pali Canon and they are in, well, Pali. So I still see no holy language, but I do see a language worthy of study to get to the original meanings.
Magadhi is the old name for the Pali language. It should not be confused with the later Prakrit that also is called Magadhi.
Mettāya,
Kåre
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by PeterB »

Thank you Kare for your characteristically thoughtful and helpful response.
Post Reply