Why learn Pali?

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Pannapetar
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Pannapetar »

I thought I already replied, but perhaps that message was lost in transmission (rather than in translation). I wanted to thank you all for your input. It definitely opened up new perspectives on the question.

Of course, things do get lost in translation. In view of the cost benefit analysis: if one is in doubt about a particular part/aspect of the canon, would it not be easier to read different available translations, perhaps in different languages that one has already learned?

Cheers, Thomas
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DNS
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by DNS »

Pannapetar wrote: In view of the cost benefit analysis: if one is in doubt about a particular part/aspect of the canon, would it not be easier to read different available translations, perhaps in different languages that one has already learned?
That would be a good way to study the texts, but it won't give you a better idea of the original meanings. You will mostly be left with differing versions of the translations for which some or all could be wrong.

But in general, certainly some translators are very trustworthy, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi.
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DNS
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by DNS »

Regarding the origin of Pali,
From Bhikkhu Bodhi:
Scholars regard this language as a hybrid showing features of several Prakrit dialects used around the third century BCE, subjected to a partial process of Sanskritization. While the language is not identical with any the Buddha himself would have spoken, it belongs to the same broad linguistic family as those he might have used and originates from the same conceptual matrix. This language thus reflects the thought-world that the Buddha inherited from the wider Indian culture into which he was born, so that its words capture the subtle nuances of that thought-world.
Bhikkhu Bodhi, In the Buddha's Words. Wisdom Publications, 2005, page 10.
Anicca
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Anicca »

Dmytro wrote:Rupert Gethin describes in detail the key terms in his excellent book "The Buddhist Path to Awakening: A Study of the Bodhi-Pakkhiya Dhamma".
One can start from the elemnts of Conditioned Arising http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and use the Nyanatiloka's dictionary http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The Path to Freedom" does a good job, with Pali terms in parentheses: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .
Thanks Dmytro!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by tiltbillings »

David N. Snyder wrote:Regarding the origin of Pali,
From Bhikkhu Bodhi:
Scholars regard this language as a hybrid showing features of several Prakrit dialects used around the third century BCE, subjected to a partial process of Sanskritization. While the language is not identical with any the Buddha himself would have spoken, it belongs to the same broad linguistic family as those he might have used and originates from the same conceptual matrix. This language thus reflects the thought-world that the Buddha inherited from the wider Indian culture into which he was born, so that its words capture the subtle nuances of that thought-world.
Bhikkhu Bodhi, In the Buddha's Words. Wisdom Publications, 2005, page 10.
And that is a reasonable assessment of the state of art scholarship on the subject. There is no point going all literal and fundamentalist on this question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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Pannapetar
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Pannapetar »

David N. Snyder wrote:You will mostly be left with differing versions of the translations for which some or all could be wrong.
Yes, in the worst case that might happen, but is it justified to be that pessimistic?

From what I have seen, Pali is a language with complex grammar and it is morphologically and lexically quite clearly defined. These characteristics should make relatively precise renderings in contemporary languages at least possible. The main problems appears to be how to deal with homonyms and style and such... no comparison to say pictographic scripts or even ancient Chinese, like the language the Tao Te Ching was written in. Or am I completely off the mark?

Cheers, Thomas
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Reductor »

Pannapetar wrote:... perhaps in different languages that one has already learned?
Since I only speak English at this time, it would seem that Pali is a fine first language. I don't think most of the world is bilingual.
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by DNS »

Pannapetar wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:You will mostly be left with differing versions of the translations for which some or all could be wrong.
Yes, in the worst case that might happen, but is it justified to be that pessimistic?
From what I have seen, Pali is a language with complex grammar and it is morphologically and lexically quite clearly defined. These characteristics should make relatively precise renderings in contemporary languages at least possible. The main problems appears to be how to deal with homonyms and style and such... no comparison to say pictographic scripts or even ancient Chinese, like the language the Tao Te Ching was written in. Or am I completely off the mark?
Yes, many translations appear to be very good and trustworthy, as I said, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi. Others clearly are not. And an understanding of certain key terms can not be understated. Some of these have no proper English translation, such as nibbana, kamma, etc.
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Cittasanto »

thereductor wrote:
Pannapetar wrote:... perhaps in different languages that one has already learned?
Since I only speak English at this time, it would seem that Pali is a fine first language. I don't think most of the world is bilingual.
for your assumption to be valid universally, everyone would need to be at least bilingual, I personally am not, so learning pali words and grammar is the desirable option as there is a desire to understand what the actual source says, comparing translations tells no one anything about what the source says it only tells us how it has been interpreted.
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Richard
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Richard »

I can only give personal reasons for why I study Pali, as I have doing on my own for the last 6 years or so. I once studied a good deal of Latin, and now enjoy learning a language that has a very similar grammatical structure. I think the best reason to learn any language is to be able to read the great literature which every language has; and for me no literature is more important than the teachings of the Buddha in the most ancient version available. It is good for a Christian to learn New Testament Greek, even though we know that Jesus did not use that language. In the Buddha's case, we can be confident that Pali most likely contains many of the same words that he used in his teaching.
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Assaji
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Assaji »

Hello,

As the Hathigumpha inscription shows, Pali was spoken in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathigumpha_inscription" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://gujaratisbs.webs.com/Abstracts%2 ... 20More.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=QYx ... 9&lpg=PA19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=XdC ... A5&lpg=PA5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://orissa.gov.in/e-magazine/Journal ... f/9-10.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Research by Dr Meena Talim shows that the language of Asokan edicts was very close to Pali:

http://www.exoticindia.ru.com/book/deta ... on-IHF006/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.aryanbooks.co.in/product.asp?pro_id=65" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by bjmwalsh »

I do not know Pali, and may not learn it, probably falling into the category of "looking up the words" to know what I am reading or chanting. However, I appreciate the language. I am inspired by the chants in the Pali language and by the majesty of the long lineages who have maintained the Buddha's words in that way. The careful and continuous chanting of the scriptures over the centuries is a venerable container for the precious teachings that I am so grateful to be receiving. It is very joyful to me, as an American, to be able to walk into a Sri Lankan temple, or a Thai temple, or a Burmese temple or others, and be able to know what they are chanting of the Buddha's Dhamma, and how happily the energy of the teachings come to us over so many centuries in the hearts, minds and voices of the living Sangha. These lineages do not ignore the Buddha's advice to spread the teachings in the local languages: Pali is almost invariably translated into the local language, simultaneously or as an aside. But the language and teachings have been polished by the dedicated memorization in the hearts and minds of countless devoted practitioners over the centuries. I do not see it as a dead language. It is not a language spoken in everyday dialect, but it is a living testament to the teaching of the Dhamma and for that reason, I say "sadhu" to all those who have taken the time to learn the language, translate it, and keep it as a living testament to the Dhamma.
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by vkasdn »

I enjoy learning pali, both expanding my vocabulary, and learning the grammar...I enjoy it because for me it is not a dead language but very much alive. The aim for me in learning pali is to interpret the texts on my own, for myself, not to depend on others. My only question is now of which script should i learn? i understand most pali scripture is written in sinhalese, not the romanized pali im used to...i guess it doesnt matter because the original was not written but spoken...either way, im intent in becoming capable of speaking conversational pali. Im learning about the grammer and its very fascinating and fun for me, a most enjoyable use of my time.
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Assaji
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by Assaji »

vkasdn wrote:My only question is now of which script should i learn? i understand most pali scripture is written in sinhalese, not the romanized pali im used to...i guess it doesnt matter because the original was not written but spoken...
Greetings Vkasdn,

Pali scriptures have been written in Sinhalese in Sri Lanka, in Thai in Thailand, and in Burmese in Myanmar. Romanized Pali is a natural choice for Western people, especially since all the Pali Canon and Commentaries are available in romanized Pali in several versions, on-line and off-line.
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Re: Why learn Pali?

Post by UhBaUnTaUh »

The reason obviously become to you, when you compare Mahasatipatthannasutta between Access Insign and Pali Text Society. :lol:

Another, some important book like Patisambhidamagga by Saareeputtamahathera school, the heart of Vipassana for me, hadn't translated on Access Insign.
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