Contact, Suffering, Cessation Qs?

[mikenz66]

Can someone point out some other Suttas that discuss cessation of contact, materiality, etc?

For the one discussed here an alternative translation is:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"For one arriving at what does form disappear? How do pleasure & pain disappear? Tell me this. My heart is set on knowing how they disappear."
"One not percipient of perceptions not percipient of aberrant perceptions, not unpercipient, nor percipient of what's disappeared: [2] for one arriving at this, form disappears — for complication-classifications [3] have their cause in perception."

[2] According to Nd.I, this passage is describing the four formless jhanas, but as the first three of the formless jhanas involve perception (of infinite space, infinite consciousness, and nothingness), only the fourth of the formless jhanas — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — would fit this description. On this point, see AN 10.29.
[3 ] Complication-classifications (papañca-sankha): The mind's tendency to read distinctions and differentiations even into the simplest experience of the present, thus giving rise to views that can issue in conflict. As Sn 4.14 points out, the root of these classifications is the perception, "I am the thinker." For further discussion of this point, see note 1 to that discourse and the introduction to MN 18.

Neither version is particularly easy to understand, and personally I wouldn't attempt to read much into it without checking some other Suttas.

Mike

[mikenz66]

Hi Thomas,

Does the Buddha talk about "breaking the chain"?

You are pushing for scriptural support. Well, there are the suttas that explain dependent origination. They also explain the negation of dependent origination, e.g. when this condition ceases, then that condition ceases. So the word used in the suttas is "cessation".

Are we supposed to try to "break the chain" or understand the chain?

We are supposed to realise cessation.

This is an interesting point about Dependent Origination.

This idea of breaking the chain at craving is reasonably common in 20th C meditation teachings. It's certainly something that Goenka talks about. Other teachers would say that what is really necessary is for ignorance to cease, since without eradicating ignorance the chain will just keep arising. I guess it's possible to argue that this is just semantics, that reducing ignorance will reduce craving, but I guess the question is whether the approach of watching and "arresting" the craving before it can do anything is actually effective at "breaking the chain", or whether it's just a useful "tactic" to keep things under control until ignorance can be truly eradicated.

I have no strong opinions on it. Certainly as a practical matter, I have found that being able to clearly discern intention (which some of my teachers stress) is very helpful in reducing reactivity (because one has a split second to decide what to do...). But whether it is "breaking the chain" I'm not sure.

Mike

[tiltbillings]

I guess the question is whether the approach of watching and "arresting" the craving before it can do anything is actually effective at "breaking the chain",

You can only break the chain with insight. That can be a good place to watch the rise and fall of dhammas.

[Sobeh]

You can only break the chain with insight.

And yet, vipassana and samatha are a swift pair of messengers...

[PeterB]

One coin. Two sides.

[Assaji]

Hi Adosa,

Contact arises when the sense base (i.e. eye), form, and eye-consciousness meet. From contact, suffering arises.

That's wrong.

Suffering arises with a contact as a necessary condition (paccaya). The relationship of conditioned arising (paticca-samuppada) doesn't mean that the links happen simultaneously.

So the contact, being distanced from suffering by several links: http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , may happen years before the resulting suffering. Or it may not lead to suffering at all, being just a necessary condition.

Metta, Dmytro

[Assaji]

Hi Thomas,

Yes, so I say. One should of course try any of the nidanas and see how far one gets with attempting to break the chain at any other point. I came to the conclusion that craving is the rather obvious point. Otherwise, why is tanha mentioned in the four noble truths? Why not say sankhara, or vijnana, or any of the other? I have wondered many years about this question. The logical starting point is avijja, isn't it? So why not put avijja into the four noble truths for the sake of form. But then it hit me. Tanha is simply more pragmatic. That's something you can work with. The very realisation of "tanha", the realisation "oh, I am craving this", or "there is some craving going on here..." is already a step into the right direction.

Yes, Buddha instructed to start with craving:

"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Avijja" in the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) refers to the previous lifetime.

Metta, Dmytro

[PeterB]

Or not. See Buddhadasa.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

"Avijja" in the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) refers to the previous lifetime.

According to the Mahavihara sect.



Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

"Avijja" in the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) refers to the previous lifetime.

According to the Mahavihara sect.

Whether or not one agrees with the interpretation it would be less confusing to phrase your comment as:
"According to the orthodox Theravada view."
[And probably the other sects, but I don't have the knowledge to comment definitively on that...]

Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

I appreciate the suggestion, but I think the original statement was rather clear. If people don't understand the distinction, they're free to ask.

Metta,
Retro.

[Pannapetar]

Avijja" in the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) refers to the previous lifetime.

Or not. See Buddhadasa.

Question is: is this really such an important distinction? I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. Perhaps the "lifetime" perspective is just one frame of reference, as valid as any other frame of reference.

Cheers, Thomas

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Pannapetar,

Question is: is this really such an important distinction? I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. Perhaps the "lifetime" perspective is just one frame of reference, as valid as any other frame of reference.

Trying to stick within the context of the discussion in hand, cessation of contact (phassanirodha) would not be possible in a particular lifetime if there had been avijja in the previous lifetime, let alone earlier in this lifetime (under the three-lifetime model)

The question then is, "Do arahants attain phassanirodha or do only dead people achieve phassanirodha?"

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

Āyasmā Sāriputto etad avoca. Sukham idam āvuso nibbānam, sukham idam āvuso nibbānan ti. Evam vutte āyasmā Udāyi āyasmantam Sāriputtam etad avoca. Kim pan'ettha āvuso Sāriputta sukham, yad ettha n'atthi vedayitan ti. Etad eva khv ettha āvuso sukham, yad ettha n'atthi vedayitam.
Anguttara IX,iv,3 <A.iv,414>

The venerable Sāriputta said this:—It is extinction, friends, that is pleasant! It is extinction, friends, that is pleasant! When this was said, the venerable Udāyi said to the venerable Sāriputta,—But what herein is pleasant, friend Sāriputta, since herein there is nothing felt?—Just this is pleasant, friend, that herein there is nothing felt.

Sariputta is cool.

The problem lies in the present, which is always with us; and any attempt to consider past or future without first settling the present problem can only beg the question—'self' is either asserted or denied, or both, or both assertion and denial are denied, all of which take it for granted

Metta,
Retro.

[adosa]

Hi Adosa,

Contact arises when the sense base (i.e. eye), form, and eye-consciousness meet. From contact, suffering arises.

That's wrong.

Suffering arises with a contact as a necessary condition (paccaya). The relationship of conditioned arising (paticca-samuppada) doesn't mean that the links happen simultaneously.

So the contact, being distanced from suffering by several links: http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , may happen years before the resulting suffering. Or it may not lead to suffering at all, being just a necessary condition.



Metta, Dmytro

Thanks Dmtryo.... but from contact suffering arises. Without contact, no suffering. Contact is the necessary condition for suffering to arises. I see where you're coming from but the statement is still true.

"The Blessed One, my friend, has said that pleasure & pain are dependently co-arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. One speaking in this way would be speaking in line with what the Blessed One has said, would not be misrepresenting the Blessed One with what is unfactual, and would be answering in line with the Dhamma so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma would have grounds for criticism.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

adosa

[Pannapetar]

The question then is, "Do arahants attain phassanirodha or do only dead people achieve phassanirodha?"

I'd be interested to know how phassanirodha is possible with a functioning body. Perhaps using a sensory deprivation chamber? But even in a sensory deprivation chamber, there is still mental contact. So, I don't think it is possible.

Cheers, Thomas