Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

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convivium
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Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by convivium »

What are the Therevada means to sexual sublimation and substitution? As a monk, what techniques are we limited to? For example: http://www.dlshq.org/download/brahmacharya.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; contains many non-sectarian, or not necessarily sectarian techniques that seem very helpful. To what extent can the divine abidings serve as a means to overcome and sublimate the orgasm? Do these sufficiently replace the mention of atman, kundalini etc. as per sivananda ^ and remain in line with the following:
Anguttara Nikaya's 7 methuna-sa.myogas ("sexual bonds" -- defects of the brahmacariya that are not as grave as sexual intercourse, though impediments all the same). The seventh bond is living the brahmacariya in the hope of obtaining rebirth as a deva in one of the sensual heavens. http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 7-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the yogic understanding, preserving the seed gives rise to spiritual power/ viriya. To what extent is this notion of ascension of consciousness in chastity paralleled in the Suttas? How does the Pali Canon touch on this? Are any instructions given for sublimation or substitution?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by Goofaholix »

convivium wrote:What are the Therevada means to sexual sublimation and substitution? As a monk, what techniques are we limited to? For example: http://www.dlshq.org/download/brahmacharya.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; contains many non-sectarian, or not necessarily sectarian techniques that seem very helpful. To what extent can the divine abidings serve as a means to overcome and sublimate the orgasm? Do these sufficiently replace the mention of atman, kundalini etc. as per sivananda ^ and remain in line with the following:
Anguttara Nikaya's 7 methuna-sa.myogas ("sexual bonds" -- defects of the brahmacariya that are not as grave as sexual intercourse, though impediments all the same). The seventh bond is living the brahmacariya in the hope of obtaining rebirth as a deva in one of the sensual heavens. http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 7-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the yogic understanding, preserving the seed gives rise to spiritual power/ viriya. To what extent is this notion of ascension of consciousness in chastity paralleled in the Suttas? How does the Pali Canon touch on this? Are any instructions given for sublimation or substitution?
Monks, also Buddhist lay people, can use Asubha practice if lust becomes a problem for them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patikulamanasikara" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Buddhist approach to practice is to see that what we crave will not satisfy us and to let go of that craving, therefore there is no need for sublimation and substitution as the craving should be fully experienced in order that it can be seen as futile and let go of.

Divine abidings have nothing to do with the sublimation of the orgasm.

I don't believe there is anything in the Pali Canon to indicate that preserving the seed gives rise to spiritual power, but some of our more scholarly members may be able to confirm this or correct me.
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“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by jcsuperstar »

never come across it
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by Virgo »

convivium wrote:What are the Therevada means to sexual sublimation and substitution? As a monk, what techniques are we limited to? For example: http://www.dlshq.org/download/brahmacharya.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; contains many non-sectarian, or not necessarily sectarian techniques that seem very helpful. To what extent can the divine abidings serve as a means to overcome and sublimate the orgasm? Do these sufficiently replace the mention of atman, kundalini etc. as per sivananda ^ and remain in line with the following:
Anguttara Nikaya's 7 methuna-sa.myogas ("sexual bonds" -- defects of the brahmacariya that are not as grave as sexual intercourse, though impediments all the same). The seventh bond is living the brahmacariya in the hope of obtaining rebirth as a deva in one of the sensual heavens. http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 7-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the yogic understanding, preserving the seed gives rise to spiritual power/ viriya. To what extent is this notion of ascension of consciousness in chastity paralleled in the Suttas? How does the Pali Canon touch on this? Are any instructions given for sublimation or substitution?
Lust is not-self, like all dhammas.

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convivium
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by convivium »

Divine abidings have nothing to do with the sublimation of the orgasm.
In craving release in orgasm, misusing the sexual energy, do we not fetter higher absorption in Brahmaviharas? Is it not a necessary sacrifice for the transformation of energy in right concentration? As in most religions, an emphasis is placed on prayer, devotion, and these divine abidings, etc. as coupled with sexual purity in esoteric or exoteric relationship to the divine. In looking to the divine abidings for support in brahmacariya, absent of unverified superstition, does the the sexual energy then elevate the factor of viraya, right concentration, altruism, etc.
Perhaps slightly :offtopic: but perhaps it is Vm that states higher Jhanas (post first Jhana) must be obtained through or in relation to the Brahmaviharas. Perhaps we can hypothesize, that as we ascend in the order of consciousness, (toward Brahma) we in effect distance ourselves from the reactionary, and capricious aspects on the path; in effect strengthening Sila, Samadhi, and allow for progressively subtle discernment?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by Goofaholix »

convivium wrote:
Divine abidings have nothing to do with the sublimation of the orgasm.
In craving release in orgasm, misusing the sexual energy, do we not fetter higher absorption in Brahmaviharas? Is it not a necessary sacrifice for the transformation of energy in right concentration? As in most religions, an emphasis is placed on prayer, devotion, and these divine abidings, etc. as coupled with sexual purity in esoteric or exoteric relationship to the divine. In looking to the divine abidings for support in brahmacariya, absent of unverified superstition, does the the sexual energy then elevate the factor of viraya, right concentration, altruism, etc.
Perhaps slightly :offtopic: but perhaps it is Vm that states higher Jhanas (post first Jhana) must be obtained through or in relation to the Brahmaviharas. Perhaps we can hypothesize, that as we ascend in the order of consciousness, (toward Brahma) we in effect distance ourselves from the reactionary, and capricious aspects on the path; in effect strengthening Sila, Samadhi, and allow for progressively subtle discernment?
The cultivation of Brahmaviharas as a meditation practice has nothing to do with absorption nor the sublimation of sex, though if one used one of the themes as a concentration practice then the concentration practice can lead to jhana. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are you sure you are on the right board? perhaps you want to be discussing tantra.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by Ben »

convivium wrote: but perhaps it is Vm that states higher Jhanas (post first Jhana) must be obtained through or in relation to the Brahmaviharas.
No, not as far as I am aware. Please feel free quote and provide a citation from the Vism if you have firm evidencve that supports your view. Many of us have copies.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Looks like some confusion between "brahmacariya" and "brahmavihara" to me.
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by Ben »

Indeed!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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convivium
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by convivium »

What object exists in higher jhanas, beyond some form of love (metta) and space (equanimity)? Does Jhana draw one closer and closer to Brahma (or highest reality within mind and matter)? If so then what can that be outside Brahmavihara? I'll try to find that Vm passage. Also, thank you for the comment on tantra. I am speaking to the common statement that Jhana, and therefore absorption in brahmaviharas depends to an extent on a chaste, clear, and creative (as opposed to consumptive) mind. Sexual desire is obviously a meditative fetter. To indulge in the orgasm therefore seems anathema to right concentration. The essentiality of never dropping a seed is almost another point; but empirically this makes sense as a waste of energy. In order to remain chaste, does it make sense to use that energy in meditation? ...
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
PeterB
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by PeterB »

With respect convivium I think you have confused the Theravada with other paths. We in the Theravada do need feel the need to deal in such concepts. Our path is not a yogic or tantric path. You might get answers to your questions if you pose them on a Vajrayana ( " Tibetan Buddhism " ) website. For example " Brahma" in the Theravada is purely symbolic.
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by Ben »

To experience jhana requires the suspension of the five hindrances and the development of the jhana factors. Sexual desire is only one hindrance. All hindrances are barriers to jhana. Furthermore, jhana is not dependent on the brahmaviharas. You can experience jhana from cultivating the brahmaviharas but its not the only way. There is not tantric-like instruction or practice that involves the recylcing of sexual energy within Theravada.
I just think you are trying to look at the Theravada through the prism of hinduism and/or Mahayana. It'll end in tears.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
PeterB
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by PeterB »

Ben wrote:To experience jhana requires the suspension of the five hindrances and the development of the jhana factors. Sexual desire is only one hindrance. All hindrances are barriers to jhana. Furthermore, jhana is not dependent on the brahmaviharas. You can experience jhana from cultivating the brahmaviharas but its not the only way. There is not tantric-like instruction or practice that involves the recylcing of sexual energy within Theravada.
I just think you are trying to look at the Theravada through the prism of hinduism and/or Mahayana. It'll end in tears.
I agree entirely Ben..it always does.
The regulation of the sex drive for Theravadin monks does not lie in some kind of psycho-physical realignment of real or imagined chakras etc.
Instead it is a direct bringing Awareness to the complex of psychological and physical impulses that underline the sex and drive and indeed all other factors of human existance. In other words the meditator watches those impulses arise, notes their nature and watches them ( eventually ) pass.
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convivium
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by convivium »

Couple quick questions...
Brahma" in the Theravada is purely symbolic.
To experience jhana requires the suspension of the five hindrances and the development of the jhana factors. Sexual desire is only one hindrance.

Can we hear about these two statements in the suttas?
---
the following is not relevant then:
of all the different manifestations of desire, ego, selfishness or whatever we wish to call this illness, are underpinned by one form of desire in particular and that is the ego of lust. The sexual energy is the very basis of our vital energy, it is the energy of creation of life itself and the interaction between the passive and active elements of the universe, that are creative on all levels from the macro-cosmos (meaning great order) to the micro-cosmos (small order). It is thus, that on a deeper level, if we wish to accumulate enough vital energy in order to reach the deepest possible comprehension, we need to address the fundamental issue of the use of our sexual energy.
Can we form a consensus from the literal suttas on what composes the naga king in this story:
When the floods were coming toward the Buddha he never stopped his meditation. He didn't even know or care that they were coming. And then the Naga King coiled underneath him and lifted him above the waters.
(Water=sex. Naga=what lifts the Buddha above it.)
Maybe then the "naga" arises from discernment of these knots of ego, and in dealing with physiological conditions, in a nutritious way. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He "stirs himself," etc. or jhana just substitutes for sexual desire till the stage of non-returner without any particular relation?
Last edited by convivium on Wed May 19, 2010 9:25 am, edited 5 times in total.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
PeterB
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Post by PeterB »

I am not sure what you are asking.
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