Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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christopher:::
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by christopher::: »

dumb bonbu wrote:
incidentally Ben, if you are struck by the poetic expression of Zen, i would highly recommend The Narrow Road to the Deep North by Bassho!
That is indeed a great book.

I'd also recommend 101 Zen Stories to anyone who hasn't read them. All 101 are online now...

http://www.101zenstories.com/

One of my favorites:

45. Right and Wrong

When Bankei held his seclusion-weeks of meditation, pupils from many parts of Japan came to attend. During one of these gatherings a pupil was caught stealing. The matter was reported to Bankei with the request that the culprit be expelled. Bankei ignored the case.

Later the pupil was caught in a similar act, and again Bankei disregarded the matter. This angered the other pupils, who drew up a petition asking for the dismissal of the thief, stating that otherwise they would leave in a body.

When Bankei had read the petition he called everyone before him. "You are wise brothers," he told them. "You know what is right and what is not right. You may go somewhere else to study if you wish, but this poor brother does not even know right from wrong. Who will teach him if I do not? I am going to keep him here even if all the rest of you leave."

A torrent of tears cleansed the face of the brother who had stolen. All desire to steal had vanished.


:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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genkaku
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by genkaku »

Christopher -- Funny, but somehow I thought the torrent of tears might have erupted among the brothers who knew right from wrong.

Wrong again, I guess. :)
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Peter wrote:...the only time I see rebirth being emphasized are by people who don't want to accept rebirth. They ask lots of questions about it, they argue about it, they try to reinterpret scriptures over it... meanwhile the other students are simply trying to learn to get some control over their minds. Honestly, if it weren't for people constantly trying to argue against rebirth I think I'd hardly ever have cause to talk about it.
:bow:
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Dhammanando
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Genkaku,
genkaku wrote:Christopher -- Funny, but somehow I thought the torrent of tears might have erupted among the brothers who knew right from wrong.

Wrong again, I guess. :)
That is in fact the outcome of a very similar story from the Christian desert fathers. As Thomas Merton tells it, when the miscreant monk is discovered the abbot wants the community to forgive him, but the brothers won't have any of it: "He's a sinner, he must go!"

To which the abbot replies: "I'm a sinner, I must go."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Individual
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by Individual »

I was a bit deluded, I think, to say above that Theravada and Zen are basically identical. There are differences.

A list of things not taught in Theravada which has been taught by Zen Buddhists, at some point:
  • All the aspects of Mahayana, including Yogacara and Madhyamaka philosophy, veneration of bodhisattvas, and sectarian slander towards the "Hinayana".
  • Their own sets of classic texts and mythologies, including some Mahayana sutras, which lay the basis for their practice.
  • Keysaku (a stick used to whack students during meditation)
  • Suizen (flute meditation)
  • Koans, short nonsensical stories, often used in a particular meditation practice
  • Doing art as meditation (painting calligraphy or drawing ensos, black circles drawn briefly with paintbrushes)
  • Belly-shouts ("Ho!" in Chinese, "Katz!" in Japanese), loud exclamations meant to induce enlightenment.
  • Death poems (jizei), poems written near death, to describe one's passing or the culmination of the meaning of one's life.
  • "Certificates of enlightenment"
  • Shaolin kung fu.
  • A lack of regard for the authority of particular scriptures.
There have also been Zen Masters like Ikkyu Sojun (who got drunk& visited prostitutes) which have showed a lack of a regard for the precepts and Japanese Zen monks do not follow Vinaya, even being non-celibate.

Also, while I would equate zazen with samatha-vipassana and shikantaza with "signless concentration" (the higher states of jhana), there are apparently many Zen Buddhists who would exaggerate the depth of their meditation practices to exalt them above what Theravadins themselves do.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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mikenz66
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Individual,

Many of the things you list appear to me to be characteristics of particular Zen or "Zen-ish" practitioners and not representative of the ideals of the tradition.

You could probably make a similar list regarding Theravada (lavish Wats, monks peddling amulets, lazy monks, lay people who just turn up for a quick blessing, ...), which would completely misrepresent what most would agree was "real Theravada".

Does either list "prove" anything?

Metta
Mike
Individual
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by Individual »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Individual,

Many of the things you list appear to me to be characteristics of particular Zen or "Zen-ish" practitioners and not representative of the ideals of the tradition.

You could probably make a similar list regarding Theravada (lavish Wats, monks peddling amulets, lazy monks, lay people who just turn up for a quick blessing, ...), which would completely misrepresent what most would agree was "real Theravada".

Does either list "prove" anything?

Metta
Mike
That's not a very good analogy, because knowledgeable Theravadin scholars know that things you mentioned are corruptions and distortions. Academic students of Zen, however, would apparently put forth apologetics. You do not. :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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christopher:::
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by christopher::: »

Individual wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Individual,

Many of the things you list appear to me to be characteristics of particular Zen or "Zen-ish" practitioners and not representative of the ideals of the tradition.

You could probably make a similar list regarding Theravada (lavish Wats, monks peddling amulets, lazy monks, lay people who just turn up for a quick blessing, ...), which would completely misrepresent what most would agree was "real Theravada".

Does either list "prove" anything?

Metta
Mike
That's not a very good analogy, because knowledgeable Theravadin scholars know that things you mentioned are corruptions and distortions. Academic students of Zen, however, would apparently put forth apologetics. You do not. :)
I really think it depends on who you are talking to, Individual. Indeed, some make excuses for the misdeeds of Zen Buddhist teachers and students. Others do not.

Many longterm Zen practitioners lived thru the initial boom of Buddhism in the States during the 1950s and 1960s. At that time quite a few Tibetan and Zen Buddhist teachers came over to teach. It was a time of the sixties counterculture, hippies and beat generation. There was a liberalism in the culture, that celebrated a freedom from "moral constraints" that led to a lot of trouble.

If you talk with people like hrtbeat7, genkaku, Karma Gedun- they observed some of this first hand, the damage it did to young Western sangha communities. The worst were sex scandals involving teachers with students, sometimes Western, sometimes Asian.

Nowadays I think most sincere practitioners are less likely to make excuses for this kind of behavior. These mistakes can happen with any tradition, imo, its not a characteristic of Zen, Tibetan or Theravadin Buddhism.

The great masters in all these traditions exhibit similar traits of character, centered on right action, adherence to the precepts, without deviation. Practitioners and teachers who ignore the precepts create problems for themselves, no matter what school or tradition.

This is my view anyway.

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Individual
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by Individual »

christopher::: wrote:I really think it depends on who you are talking to, Individual. Indeed, some make excuses for the misdeeds of Zen Buddhist teachers and students. Others do not.
Not just the misdeeds of Zen teachers and students, but their teachings and practices. Zen Buddhists apparently do not care at all about tracing their teachings back to the scriptures and practices of the Buddha. When it comes to something like hitting a gong before meditation, I don't think it's a big deal. But when it comes to the more elaborate practices, like koan meditation, it's questionable.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Individual wrote:Zen Buddhists apparently do not care at all about tracing their teachings back to the scriptures and practices of the Buddha..
Image
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by Ceisiwr »

There may be divergent practices but the goal is the same, and as I said i quoted an earlier post
"Wherever there is the four noble truths and the eight fold path, there you will find arahants
It is only when these teachings are forgotten or given a back seat so to speak, does the buddhadhamma disappear.



:namaste:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Individual,
Drolma wrote:
Individual wrote:Zen Buddhists apparently do not care at all about tracing their teachings back to the scriptures and practices of the Buddha..
Image
Well, it would be easy to make the same sort of accusations about Theravada Buddhists. How about these, for a start?
Forest Monks don't see any point in reading what the Buddha said. They just tell you to 'read your own mind'.
City Monks don't bother with meditation, don't pay any attention to the vinaya, and (worst of all!) don't even dye their own robes! They think that all you need to do is memorise all of the categories of citta and cetasika in the Abhidhamma.
:popcorn:

Mike
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christopher:::
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by christopher::: »

Individual wrote:
christopher::: wrote:I really think it depends on who you are talking to, Individual. Indeed, some make excuses for the misdeeds of Zen Buddhist teachers and students. Others do not.
Not just the misdeeds of Zen teachers and students, but their teachings and practices. Zen Buddhists apparently do not care at all about tracing their teachings back to the scriptures and practices of the Buddha. When it comes to something like hitting a gong before meditation, I don't think it's a big deal. But when it comes to the more elaborate practices, like koan meditation, it's questionable.
No offense, Individual, but your reasoning here has perhaps fallen into a mental :quote: stereotype :quote: . Have to be watchful for those. It happens to the best of us. (Most of us?) Like ditches on the side of the road they tend to provide a box-like space where thoughts that fall in simply keep spinning.

Don't worry, with patience and calm reflection your mind will soon break free!

:namaste:

Another Zen story:

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen. Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"


:heart:
Last edited by christopher::: on Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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bodom
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by bodom »

christopher::: wrote:
Individual wrote:
christopher::: wrote:I really think it depends on who you are talking to, Individual. Indeed, some make excuses for the misdeeds of Zen Buddhist teachers and students. Others do not.
Not just the misdeeds of Zen teachers and students, but their teachings and practices. Zen Buddhists apparently do not care at all about tracing their teachings back to the scriptures and practices of the Buddha. When it comes to something like hitting a gong before meditation, I don't think it's a big deal. But when it comes to the more elaborate practices, like koan meditation, it's questionable.
No offense, Individual, but your reasoning here has perhaps fallen into a mental :quote: stereotype :quote: . Have to be watchful for those. It happens to the best of us. (Most of us?) Like ditches on the side of the road they tend to provide a box-like space where thoughts that fall in simply keep spinning.

Don't worry, with patience and practice your mind will soon break free!

:namaste:

Another Zen story:

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen. Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"


:heart:
Beginners Mind!

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Theravada and Zen - a comparative analysis

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

It is entirely possible to embrace and love your tradition without having to attack other sects as false. Hopefully the more firmly grounded one becomes in his/her own practice, the less interest s/he has in taking issue with other people's stuff.

It's my opinion that sect-bashing arises out of emotional need or a lack of basic understanding about other sects. It's embarrassing when Buddhists do this to one another. It's not in the spirit of dharma. And please don't give me any double-talk about how the Buddha made fun of wrong views, so we can/should do it too. That's just conceit.

[/rant off]
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