Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

[convivium]

"It has been said, sire, by the Exalted One...: 'Come, monks, guard the doors of your sense-faculties. Seeing an object with the eye, do not seize hold of either its general appearance or its details. Because anyone dwelling with the eye-faculty uncontrolled could be overwhelmed by cupidity and dejection, evil and unwholesome states of mind, therefore practice to control the eye-faculty, guard it and gain control over it. [Similarly with ear, nose, tongue, body (touch), mind.] That is how these young monks... can practice the holy life... to the end of their days.'"

that's really it then?

[convivium]

Don't give way to heedlessness
or to intimacy
with sensual delight —
for a heedful person,
absorbed in jhana,
attains an abundance of ease.
...
Through heedfulness, Indra won
to lordship over the gods.
Heedfulness is praised,
heedlessness censured —
always.

Seven stations of consciousness and two spheres:
There are beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station of consciousness.

There are beings with diversity of body and singularity of perception, such as the devas of the Brahma hosts generated by the first [jhana]. This is the second station of consciousness.

There are beings with singularity of body and diversity of perception, such as the Radiant Devas. This is the third station of consciousness.

There are beings with singularity of body and singularity of perception, such as the Beautifully Lustrous Devas. This is the fourth station of consciousness.

There are beings who, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.

The dimension of non-percipient beings and, second, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. These are the two spheres.

— Maha-nidana Suttanta, DN 15

( *Sutta describing jhana corresponding with heavenly realms... )

[convivium]

What else can help understand chastity in the monastic context? Why is it given such distinction in the order of precepts?

to answer my own question about Jhana...

And what, Bhikkhus, is then the happiness, that is not of this world?
Having eliminated the 5 mental hindrances, mental defects that obstruct understanding,
quite secluded from sensual desires, protected from any detrimental mental state,
one enters & dwells in the 1st Jhana; full of Joy & pleasure born of solitude, joined with
directed & sustained thought. Again, friends, with the stilling of directed & sustained thought,
one enters & dwells in the 2nd Jhana, calmed assurance & unification of mind with Joy &
pleasure, now born of concentration, devoid of any thought! Again, friends, with the fading
away of joy, the friend dwells in equanimity, aware & clearly comprehending, still feeling
pleasure in the body, one enters upon & remains in the 3rd Jhana, regarding which the Noble
Ones declare: 'In aware Equanimity one dwells in Happiness!'. This is the happiness,
that is not of this world! A Joy not of the Flesh!

[Agent]

What else can help understand chastity in the monastic context? Why is it given such distinction in the order of precepts?

Most people spend a great deal of their lives involved in activities and thinking that in some way revolve around sex and sexual relationships. Imagine how different one's life would be if all that time were instead dedicated to the dhamma.

[rowyourboat]

Hello convivium

Why do you assume that there is a link to jhana via some unknown but assumed 'sexual energy' or that jhana arises by it being suppressed?

Why do you assume that there is such a thing as sexual energy? (dont tell me it is 'common knowledge' )

All these are ultimately assumptions- jhana arises by suppressing FIVE hindrances- not ONE. So if we are focused on finding links with sex- that is exactly the one we will be focusing on.

There is no need to jump to conclusions about unconscious process which may or may not be. It is easy to suppose that something exists- but a bit more difficult to stay with the idea that one simply doesnt know and there are many possibilities.

with metta

[convivium]

Why do you assume that there is a link to jhana via some unknown but assumed 'sexual energy' or that jhana arises by it being suppressed?

can you have the cake and eat it too? can you have jhana and also fornicate? no assumptions...

Why do you assume that there is such a thing as sexual energy? (dont tell me it is 'common knowledge' )

sexual energy, my understanding: for instance when we're feeling a little suppressed, or feral, and we just stop and allow those feelings to become metta instead of expelling them through the orgasm... Energy Kundalini for example is not something we try to awaken in Jhana (Ajahn Geoff's instructions).

All these are ultimately assumptions- jhana arises by suppressing FIVE hindrances- not ONE. So if we are focused on finding links with sex- that is exactly the one we will be focusing on.

Question: Does it arise by suppressing the five hindrances, or require an absence of those hindrances to arise? For some, kama-tanha might be the greatest hindrance; after all the fetter of sexual desire is among the deepest rooted. Reportedly the Buddha said, "If there was any force stronger than sex, then I wouldn't have become a Buddha". Perhaps it is a fundamental biological drive in us domestic primates, after the initial stages of developement (survival, anal, rational). Anyway, singular importance is not important, but that doesn't negate it's primal importance.

There is no need to jump to conclusions about unconscious process which may or may not be. It is easy to suppose that something exists- but a bit more difficult to stay with the idea that one simply doesnt know and there are many possibilities.

sadhu.

[Agent]

Why do you assume that there is a link to jhana via some unknown but assumed 'sexual energy' or that jhana arises by it being suppressed?

can you have the cake and eat it too? can you have jhana and also fornicate? no assumptions...

You seem to have made a strong connection between jhana and sexual energy. Honestly, I just don't understand where you're getting this idea as I'm not familiar with anything like it in the suttas. How does a state that is "secluded from sensuality" in any way imply a release of sexual energy?

Can you provide any excerpts from the suttas that explain jhana as being sexual energy? I don't see this implication in any of the passages you have quoted so far. Maybe this will help us understand where you're coming from.

Why do you assume that there is such a thing as sexual energy? (dont tell me it is 'common knowledge' )

sexual energy, my understanding: for instance when we're feeling a little suppressed, or feral, and we just stop and allow those feelings to become metta instead of expelling them through the orgasm... Energy Kundalini for example is not something we try to awaken in Jhana (Ajahn Geoff's instructions).

I would say these feelings more closely resemble restlessness and fall more under the hindrance uddhacca-kukkucca than kamacchandra. Regardless, I don't understand why these feelings have to either manifest as metta or orgasm. This seems to imply that metta is also a way of releasing or repressing sexual energy.

All these are ultimately assumptions- jhana arises by suppressing FIVE hindrances- not ONE. So if we are focused on finding links with sex- that is exactly the one we will be focusing on.

Question: Does it arise by suppressing the five hindrances, or require an absence of those hindrances to arise? For some, kama-tanha might be the greatest hindrance; after all the fetter of sexual desire is among the deepest rooted. Reportedly the Buddha said, "If there was any force stronger than sex, then I wouldn't have become a Buddha". Perhaps it is a fundamental biological drive in us domestic primates, after the initial stages of developement (survival, anal, rational). Anyway, singular importance is not important, but that doesn't negate it's primal importance.

Sex is not one of the hindrances. It can be categorized under the hinderance kamacchandra, sensual desire. Kama-tanha is one of the three kinds of desire; again, sensual desire. It is also not a fetter. The fetter you're thinking of is kāmacchando which is, again, sensual desire.
My point is that it appears that a big part of the problem here is that you are interpreting the word "sensual" in the suttas as referring to something sexual. In this context it means gratification of the 5 senses, which is not necessarily sexual. If I am attached to a smell, taste, feel, sight, or sound, that is sensual desire. Yes sex can fall under this category, but it is far from the only thing that does.
I really think you are overemphasizing the role of sexuality in the context of Buddhism. Yes, it can be a difficult hangup for many people, but I think the extent to which you are interpreting jhana or metta as somehow being a way of releasing or repressing sexual energy is itself simply indicative a hangup on sex. It is not supported by the suttas.

[convivium]

My point is that it appears that a big part of the problem here is that you are interpreting the word "sensual" in the suttas as referring to something sexual. In this context it means gratification of the 5 senses, which is not necessarily sexual. If I am attached to a smell, taste, feel, sight, or sound, that is sensual desire. Yes sex can fall under this category, but it is far from the only thing that does.

Anguttara Nikàya

1. Ekakanipàta

I. CITTAPARIYADANA VAGGA

AN 1.1 ~ AN1.10 : Matter and others.

I heard thus,
At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi.
The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus and said:

1.Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The form of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the first.

2.Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The sound of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the second.

3. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The smell of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man This is the third.

4.Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The taste of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fourth.

5. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The touch of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fifth.

6.Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of woman as that of man.
The form of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the sixth..

7.Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of woman as that of man.
The sound of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the seventh

8. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of woman as that of man.
The smell of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman This is the eighth..

9.Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of woman as that of man.
The taste of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the ninth.

10. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of woman as that of man.
The touch of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the tenth.

if a person is fornicating then this person isn't "secluded from sensuality." if it helps think of it in terms of the aggregates, and keep the word energy out of it. what happens when we develope equanimity to sankaras, and do not fuel perseptions based on greed, hatred or delusion? the sankaras related to sex are among the strongest in all the human psyche.

"Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean — in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)."

[Kenshou]

The fact remains that sex is but one among many potential opportunities for sense-clinging, and clinging to sense experience is not necessarily inherently sexual by any means.

What exactly are you trying to communicate, besides the fact that sexual issues can be a strong source of clinging, which is something that we all already know? It seemed to me that you were trying to reply to the bit you quoted from Agent, but it doesn't seem that you've done anything to refute or comment on it.

[convivium]

besides the fact that sexual issues (according to the above sutta are the strongest) potential of clinging/captivation*...

. so then, what happens when we develope equanimity to the vedana, discern the sankaras, and do not fuel mystified perceptions? We witness the dukkha and so...

suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are

if we recognize the dukkha in sexual desire, then it becomes the supporting condition for what is to follow; since it is a particularly powerful confluence of asvas and sankaras, the following conditions can distinguish themselves above other conditions of dukkha. From this arises stronger elements of faith, and the conditions that follow. Note that dukkha of birth is preceded by the clinging, and existance, which then gives rise to suffering.
What is the cause of birth in mundane knowledge? Sex. Despite controversy over the multiple lifetimes, model, etc. we are fashioned in sex, and this precedes both existence and birth the existence of the aggregates*, as we come know them empirically. but is life and death but a dream anyway? in which case (one lifetime model) clinging-->existance-->birth seems all the same particularly sexual, though other factors of tanha are enumerated as well.

[PeterB]

yup sex is real bad..so none of us should do it and so the species will die out....end of problem.

[cooran]

So... Peter... tell me, please. Does this mean you think rebirth only occurs as a human being?

with metta
Chrfis

[Goofaholix]

so then, what happens when we develope equanimity to the vedana, discern the sankaras, and do not fuel mystified perceptions? We witness the dukkha and so...
if we recognize the dukkha in sexual desire, then it becomes the supporting condition for what is to follow; since it is a particularly powerful confluence of asvas and sankaras, the following conditions can distinguish themselves above other conditions of dukkha. From this arises stronger elements of faith, and the conditions that follow. Note that dukkha of birth is preceded by the clinging, and existance, which then gives rise to suffering.

Yes, this is true for all kinds of craving, including sexual craving.

What is the cause of birth in mundane knowledge? Sex. Despite controversy over the multiple lifetimes, model, etc. we are fashioned in sex, and this precedes both existence and birth the existence of the aggregates*, as we come know them empirically. but is life and death but a dream anyway? in which case (one lifetime model) clinging-->existance-->birth seems all the same particularly sexual, though other factors of tanha are enumerated as well.

Actually the cause of birth in mundane knowledge I'd say is pregnancy, and of course the cause of pregnancy is sex, anyway I'm sure my wife would back me up that there is a lot of dukkha in pregnancy.

I suggest you start with the four noble truths and work your way from there, trying to fashion Buddhism as something about sex just doesn't work.

[PeterB]

So... Peter... tell me, please. Does this mean you think rebirth only occurs as a human being?

with metta
Chrfis

Rebirth is another issue Chris..
my answer was ironic, brahmacariya in the Hindu sense plays no part in Theravada Buddhism. Bhikkhus are not celibate for the same reasons as Hindu monks. Sex is only a problem to the extent that we see it as a problem. Many people see it as a problem. The loud buzz is the bee in their bonnet.

[PeterB]

So... Peter... tell me, please. Does this mean you think rebirth only occurs as a human being?

with metta
Chrfis

At the risk of derailing the thread onto something completely different I am agnostic about literal Rebirth whether in the human or any other realm.

[convivium]

I, a monk,
gone to the charnel ground,
saw a woman cast away,
discarded
there in the cemetery.

Though some were disgusted,
seeing her — dead, evil —
lust
appeared,
as if I were blind
to the oozings.

In less time than it takes
for rice to cook,
I got out of that place.
Mindful, alert, I
sat down to one side.
Then apt attention arose in me,
the drawbacks appeared,
disenchantment stood
at an even keel:

With that, my heart was released.
See the Dhamma's true rightness!
The three knowledges
have been attained;
the Awakened One's bidding,
done.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...5.01.than.html

Asubha meditation

The meaning and the purpose:
Asubha means un-beauty. Kammatthana means meditation exercise. So Asubha-Kammatthana means meditation exercise by using unloveliness of body as the object of meditation. Concentrate on the temperament of that there is nothing beautiful, there is only dirtiness and disgust in and of the body.

This is good for those with lustful disposition.

CAUTION: R-Rated

http://www.wakeupsmart.com/Asubha.html

that's what monks used to do; only in real life. watching and smelling the bodies decay, with flesh eating animals around them. Does this still happen?

[Goofaholix]

that's what monks used to do; only in real life. watching and smelling the bodies decay, with flesh eating animals around them. Does this still happen?

yes

[Agent]

See the dhamma talk "In the Dead of Night" by Ajahn Chah starting on page 236 of this collection of talks.

[convivium]

So the main methods dealing with sexual suppression and desire are so far...
contemplation of loathsomeness/charnel ground
jhana
sense restraint
hard work/busy schedule/little sleep
one meal a day
not seeing women
the rest of the eightfold path...
Do many Therevada monastics & initiates have issues of sexual suppression? Are these approaches usually sufficient to renounce all forms of sexuality?

[Cittasanto]

So the main methods dealing with sexual suppression and desire are so far...
contemplation of loathsomeness/charnel ground
jhana
sense restraint
hard work/busy schedule/little sleep
one meal a day
not seeing women
the rest of the eightfold path...
Do many Therevada monastics & initiates have issues of sexual suppression? Are these approaches usually sufficient to renounce all forms of sexuality?

suppression isn't going to help anyone, we are to 'let go of,' renounce, not suppress.