Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

whitewedding wrote:
smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.
I think the real reason is that today people meditate in accordance with the Visuddhimagga and not in accordance with the Suttas.
Buddha's Jhana is clearly not the same thing as the Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha gives a very detailed description of how to get to his Jhanas in the suttas - the way to get there is nothing like the way to get to Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha's Jhana is neither sammatha Jhana nor vipassana Jhana - It is both. And he says that you are unlikely to reach Nibbana unless you have both simultaneously.
With metta,
Steve.
And you are speaking from years of direct experience, having read both the suttas and the Visuddhimagga in their original Pali, doing the various practices outlined in each under the guidance of a realized teacher?

And you are distinguishing "samatha jhana" (you would be more credible of you spelled samatha correctly) from "vipassana jhana" from the "sutta jhana" how?

Blanket statements such as you just made here are hard to take seriously.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
whitewedding
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by whitewedding »

In this way, what I think are the factors of awakening arise just how the buddha says they do (although you need to be in sammatha quite a bit to see them).
From mindfulness arises investigation: Well - this is what I've just talked about above (applying the vicara).
From investigation arises energy: Each new vicara gives to a tremendous burst of energy.
From energy arises joy: No further explanation needed.
From joy arise tranquility: Ditto.
From tranquility arises concentration: You sink into the object of sammatha.
From concentration arises equinimity: The sammatha makes the sensations of the sati shine (negative of positive - all shine up bright).

The buddha says that the factors increase to give "the release of the mind". It is clear from the sutta about Sarriputta that by "release of the mind" the buddha means Jhana - not Nibbana (like the commentaries make it out to be).

Peace and metta,
Steve.
whitewedding
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by whitewedding »

tiltbillings wrote:
whitewedding wrote:
smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.
I think the real reason is that today people meditate in accordance with the Visuddhimagga and not in accordance with the Suttas.
Buddha's Jhana is clearly not the same thing as the Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha gives a very detailed description of how to get to his Jhanas in the suttas - the way to get there is nothing like the way to get to Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha's Jhana is neither sammatha Jhana nor vipassana Jhana - It is both. And he says that you are unlikely to reach Nibbana unless you have both simultaneously.
With metta,
Steve.
And you are speaking from years of direct experience, having read both the suttas and the Visuddhimagga in their original Pali, doing the various practices outlined in each under the guidance of a realized teacher?

And you are distinguishing "samatha jhana" (you would be more credible of you spelled samatha correctly) from "vipassana jhana" from the "sutta jhana" how?

Blanket statements such as you just made here are hard to take seriously.
"More credible if I spelt samatha correctly" - WTF! Jesus man - I'm not attacking you - you don't have to attack me back (with all your so called Sila as well).

"Hard to take seriously" - I think I've been giving a serious description of a meditation technique here.

What do you mean by blanket statements as well?

Do you actually have any productive comments to make about my technique?

Well - I guess by samatha jhana I mean the Jhanas of the Visuddhimagga and I guess by vipassana jhana I mean what U Pandita talks of.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

whitewedding wrote:In this way, what I think are the factors of awakening arise just how the buddha says they do (although you need to be in sammatha quite a bit to see them).
From mindfulness arises investigation: Well - this is what I've just talked about above (applying the vicara).
From investigation arises energy: Each new vicara gives to a tremendous burst of energy.
From energy arises joy: No further explanation needed.
From joy arise tranquility: Ditto.
From tranquility arises concentration: You sink into the object of sammatha.
From concentration arises equinimity: The sammatha makes the sensations of the sati shine (negative of positive - all shine up bright).

The buddha says that the factors increase to give "the release of the mind". It is clear from the sutta about Sarriputta that by "release of the mind" the buddha means Jhana - not Nibbana (like the commentaries make it out to be).

Peace and metta,
Steve.
You really have not answered my questions in the above msg, which you obviously really did not read very carefully.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
whitewedding
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by whitewedding »

Oh sorry - I miss read it - I thought you were saying you had done all this.

No - I haven't had guidance from a realised teacher (which I think is probably a very good thing - too many lectures cloud your mind). But I have been meditating virtually all the time for the last year or so (and had been meditating regularly before that).
And no I haven't read ... in original Pali (but still the translation contradict so I don't know if that would help). That's why I don't actually take the translations into account and piece together the general framework instead.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

whitewedding wrote:Oh sorry - I miss read it - I thought you were saying you had done all this.

No - I haven't had guidance from a realised teacher (which I think is probably a very good thing - too many lectures cloud your mind). But I have been meditating virtually all the time for the last year or so (and had been meditating regularly before that).
And no I haven't read ... in original Pali (but still the translation contradict so I don't know if that would help). That's why I don't actually take the translations into account and piece together the general framework instead.
So, based upon your own experience (which is based upon what?) you have cobbled together the truly true understanding of the Buddha's teachings - is that what you are saying?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
whitewedding
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by whitewedding »

But I expect that these guys have...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lQ_Z ... st&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

whitewedding wrote:
Do you actually have any productive comments to make about my technique?
Probably not, given that it does not make a lot of sense.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
whitewedding
Posts: 71
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by whitewedding »

tiltbillings wrote:
whitewedding wrote:Oh sorry - I miss read it - I thought you were saying you had done all this.

No - I haven't had guidance from a realised teacher (which I think is probably a very good thing - too many lectures cloud your mind). But I have been meditating virtually all the time for the last year or so (and had been meditating regularly before that).
And no I haven't read ... in original Pali (but still the translation contradict so I don't know if that would help). That's why I don't actually take the translations into account and piece together the general framework instead.
So, based upon your own experience (which is based upon what?) you have cobbled together the truly true understanding of the Buddha's teachings - is that what you are saying?
Mate - why do you have to be sending me this shit. You see - the difference between me and you is that I don't say this stuff to people and that is why I will progress much further in meditation than you ever will.

No - I haven't got a "totally true understanding" but am learning more each day. I simply play around with my technique and compare it with the suttas. You see - I have experiences coming automatically which agree with the experiences the buddha describes (like what I think (notice I have always said "I think")) are the factors of awakening. These are the signs to me that I am on the right path.

Steve.
whitewedding
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by whitewedding »

tiltbillings wrote:
whitewedding wrote:
Do you actually have any productive comments to make about my technique?
Probably not, given that it does not make a lot of sense.
What are you talking about - in what way doesn't it make sense?

Convo over mate - I've got better things to do with my time than read all the insulting comments your sending me.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

whitewedding wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
whitewedding wrote:Oh sorry - I miss read it - I thought you were saying you had done all this.

No - I haven't had guidance from a realised teacher (which I think is probably a very good thing - too many lectures cloud your mind). But I have been meditating virtually all the time for the last year or so (and had been meditating regularly before that).
And no I haven't read ... in original Pali (but still the translation contradict so I don't know if that would help). That's why I don't actually take the translations into account and piece together the general framework instead.
So, based upon your own experience (which is based upon what?) you have cobbled together the truly true understanding of the Buddha's teachings - is that what you are saying?
Mate - why do you have to be sending me this shit. You see - the difference between me and you is that I don't say this stuff to people and that is why I will progress much further in meditation than you ever will.
Heavens.
No - I haven't got a "totally true understanding" but am learning more each day. I simply play around with my technique and compare it with the suttas. You see - I have experiences coming automatically which agree with the experiences the buddha describes (like what I think (notice I have always said "I think")) are the factors of awakening. These are the signs to me that I am on the right path.
The capacity for self delusion in practice, especially a self directed one, is quite remarkable, which is why working with a teacher, or several teachers, over a fair period of time is worthwhile. Also, of value is the capacity to listen to others and to entertain the probability that of being wrong.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

whitewedding wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
whitewedding wrote:
Do you actually have any productive comments to make about my technique?
Probably not, given that it does not make a lot of sense.
What are you talking about - in what way doesn't it make sense?

Convo over mate - I've got better things to do with my time than read all the insulting comments your sending me.
You are using terminology here in a highly idiosyncratic way, which makes for difficulty in understanding what is that you are trying to say. One of the big problems here is that you are coming across as preaching, which is really a very big turn off. You might want to review/revise your past msgs in that light.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
whitewedding
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by whitewedding »

I'm not preaching - I am simply suggesting a mediation technique I have developed. Thought it might be some help to people.
whitewedding
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by whitewedding »

I also have developed another - far better meditation technique - but maybe I'll wait until your offline before I describe how I developed this one.
Steve.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Post by tiltbillings »

whitewedding wrote: Buddha's Jhana is clearly not the same thing as the Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
You claim that but you do not support it, giving no reason to take it seriously.
Buddha gives a very detailed description of how to get to his Jhanas in the suttas - the way to get there is nothing like the way to get to Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
And we should believe you, why?
Buddha's Jhana is neither sammatha Jhana nor vipassana Jhana - It is both. And he says that you are unlikely to reach Nibbana unless you have both simultaneously.
It really does not look like you have much of a grasp of the notion of vipassana jhanas as an actual practice. You assert without any real support these sorts of claims, and then in your next msg you talk about LSD. You really need to reassess your whole approach here in talking about this stuff.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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