I agree. The hindrances is the big factor why many esp lay followers are not able to enter jhana.Lazy_eye wrote:It strikes me that the core question is not whether one has to have ordained or not, but whether one has to have permanently eliminated the hindrances or not.
If so, that would effectively put the jhanas out of reach for most laypeople -- except those who are single and planning to stay that way, or others who are in a celibate union (hopefully with the partner's agreement!).
If not, then the possibilities are broader, obviously.
I've run into folks (currently in a discussion on another forum about this, actually) who say the hindrances must be completely eradicated before jhana can be attained, let alone insight into the Four Noble Truths.
Is jhana possible?
Re: Is jhana possible?
Re: Is jhana possible?
Hi David, Lazy Eye, all
kind regards
Ben
Evidence for it in the suttas is found in the Ariyapariyesana Sutta (MN 26) "The Noble Search".David N. Snyder wrote:They do not need to be eliminated permanently. The hindrances to meditation just need to be eradicated for that meditation session. This is why the jhanas are attainable by lay people. I don't have the exact reference handy, but may find it later, but you do not need to permanently eradicate those hindrances.Lazy_eye wrote:It strikes me that the core question is not whether one has to have ordained or not, but whether one has to have permanently eliminated the hindrances or not.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- jcsuperstar
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
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Re: Is jhana possible?
yes.
but it isn't easy, unless of course you're doing jhana lite but I'm not even going to get into that discussion here. all i can say is living in a monastic environment with most of my time engaged in meditation it was hard to get into those deep jhanas you read about but do-able, maybe if i had become a monk i could have mastered the jhanas, who knows but what i do know is married and at home I'm good to just get some sort of peace of mind during the day through whatever sitting or mindfulness practice i engage in. when i finish my degree i plan to take a year off and ordain at the most back woods deep forest wat i can find in Thailand and hopefully then i can get back into that type of deep meditation but i highly doubt i'll ever come close to it any other way.
but it isn't easy, unless of course you're doing jhana lite but I'm not even going to get into that discussion here. all i can say is living in a monastic environment with most of my time engaged in meditation it was hard to get into those deep jhanas you read about but do-able, maybe if i had become a monk i could have mastered the jhanas, who knows but what i do know is married and at home I'm good to just get some sort of peace of mind during the day through whatever sitting or mindfulness practice i engage in. when i finish my degree i plan to take a year off and ordain at the most back woods deep forest wat i can find in Thailand and hopefully then i can get back into that type of deep meditation but i highly doubt i'll ever come close to it any other way.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Re: Is jhana possible?
I have no personal knowledge of anyone who attained jhanas easily. Although I dont doubt the possibility.Tree wrote:Some folks are born with the ability to reach these states easily.
Life is messier than some of us want to admit.
Would be nice if there was a manual or rule book and all we had to do was follow the instructions in the correct order.
But it's never worked like that.
The Buddha himself spontaneously obtained a state of jhana when he was a kid.
To think he is the only gifted person, would be short sited.
The Buddha is not teaching to obtain these jhanas, but to cultivate them.
IMHO
As to " The Buddha is not teaching to obtain these jhanas, but to cultivate them " I simply dont understand what you are saying.
Re: Is jhana possible?
Hi JC
metta
Ben
I would like to suggest to you a long silent retreat if you don't get the opportunity to ordain, and with a young family, you might find it a bit more do-able. In the meantime, try and get away at least once a year for a residential retreat of a week or longer. And of course, keep up your daily practice!jcsuperstar wrote:yes.
but it isn't easy, unless of course you're doing jhana lite but I'm not even going to get into that discussion here. all i can say is living in a monastic environment with most of my time engaged in meditation it was hard to get into those deep jhanas you read about but do-able, maybe if i had become a monk i could have mastered the jhanas, who knows but what i do know is married and at home I'm good to just get some sort of peace of mind during the day through whatever sitting or mindfulness practice i engage in. when i finish my degree i plan to take a year off and ordain at the most back woods deep forest wat i can find in Thailand and hopefully then i can get back into that type of deep meditation but i highly doubt i'll ever come close to it any other way.
metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- mydoghasfleas
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:25 pm
Re: Is jhana possible?
Thank you all for your kind and thoughtful responses. It seems the general consensus is that it IS possible for lay practitioners, but not without a significant investment of time on the cushion everyday -- which in itself would put it out of reach of most "householders." Also being a householder has obligations which make it even more difficult to put aside or eliminate the hindrances (restlessness and worry come to mind.)
A secondary question, then, is can jhana arise spontaneously when all the conditions are there, or is an active effort or intention to attain jhana necessary?
I ask these questions not through any disappointment in my own practice, but because the suttas seem to indicate that it is natural and normal to attain jhana.
Also, nathan mentioned the vipassana nanas. I have never heard the term "nanas." Could you please explain, or direct me to further study?
Thank you all so much.
A secondary question, then, is can jhana arise spontaneously when all the conditions are there, or is an active effort or intention to attain jhana necessary?
I ask these questions not through any disappointment in my own practice, but because the suttas seem to indicate that it is natural and normal to attain jhana.
Also, nathan mentioned the vipassana nanas. I have never heard the term "nanas." Could you please explain, or direct me to further study?
Thank you all so much.
Re: Is jhana possible?
Hi bdah,
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards
Ben
Both. One actively cultivates the conditions for jhana by engaging in samatha bhavana and maintaining the precepts. It requires both effort and intention.bdah wrote:A secondary question, then, is can jhana arise spontaneously when all the conditions are there, or is an active effort or intention to attain jhana necessary?
Yes, but you need the right conditions. This includes an extended period of seclusion, maintaining the precepts and engaging in samatha bhavana. Attempting to achieve jhana in the busy day-to-day life of a householder is going to be difficult to say the least.bdah wrote:I ask these questions not through any disappointment in my own practice, but because the suttas seem to indicate that it is natural and normal to attain jhana.
Nana (naana) is "knowledge". The vipassana nanas are also known as the stages of insight. They are the stepping stones of meditative attainment or knowledge on the path. They are described in the Visuddhimagga and in Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight.bdah wrote:Also, nathan mentioned the vipassana nanas. I have never heard the term "nanas." Could you please explain, or direct me to further study?
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Is jhana possible?
Perhaps it goes without saying, but something I did not see mentioned in this thread, which for the benefit of bdah I'll note, is that it's also dependent upon which model of jhana one is aiming for. http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They're all described in terms of the same parts, the difference being the intensity of the factors and strength of one-pointedness, from Brasington's more accessible "jhana lite" to the traditional Theravada model, which pushes absorption to it's limits.
I believe that jhana mimicking that of the discourses, which is rather in-between those two extremes is accessible and useful, though not without a fairly long-term dedication, and I'd agree with Nathan's assessment in general. 2-3~ hours of sitting in a quiet place per day, bolstered by good conduct at other times, eventually bears fruit.
I believe that jhana mimicking that of the discourses, which is rather in-between those two extremes is accessible and useful, though not without a fairly long-term dedication, and I'd agree with Nathan's assessment in general. 2-3~ hours of sitting in a quiet place per day, bolstered by good conduct at other times, eventually bears fruit.
"ñāna" = knowledge or insight, referring to the progress through various insights in some vipassana systems. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Also, nathan mentioned the vipassana nanas. I have never heard the term "nanas." Could you please explain, or direct me to further study?
Last edited by Kenshou on Fri May 21, 2010 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is jhana possible?
Howdy-nathan wrote:... finding it easier to access the jhanas are those who practice either vipassana or samatha or both for three hours or more every day consistently for months and years.
Not one hour three times a day but three hours or more per single session - right?
Metta
Re: Is jhana possible?
I would say that three sittings a day each of an hours length would be sufficient, provided the time between was spent mindfully. Last fall I was spending about 2-3 hours a night in meditation 'mode' where I would sit several times, each of various lengths, depending on different factors (pain, drowsiness, success, etc). The time between was spent doing stuff around the house that didn't require any abstract thought (but it late, so not to hard).Anicca wrote:Howdy-nathan wrote:... finding it easier to access the jhanas are those who practice either vipassana or samatha or both for three hours or more every day consistently for months and years.
Not one hour three times a day but three hours or more per single session - right?
Metta
I would suggest to people interested in jhana to develop sense restraint to the highest degree possible, as I think that is the most useful factor in this endeavor. Don't spend your day dwelling on things closely connected with the hindrances, and don't let the mind become any busier than is necessary to carry out your duties in life. Reduce your duties as much as is possible.
Oh, and in terms of what form of jhana I cultivate, I am interested in sutta style, which requires a good bit of work to attain and maintain. But as it becomes more familiar ground, it becomes easier to enter into. Still, sense restraint is important in maintaining this ability, as is a steady meditation practice.
The jhana style of the commentaries is, I have come to think, the sutta style taken to an extreme in terms of what perceptions are able/allowed to arise... and it has to be asked how narrowing perceptions to such a degree benefits the meditator, other than the pleasure factor.
Whether a layman can attain jhana has a lot to do with how many sense pleasure they are willing to abandon in their daily lives (I'm including here just about everything that isn't the bare minimum for the maintenance of life). I don't think a complete abandoning of laymen pleasures is necessary, but care must be taken in what kind and how much, with an eye on how those pleasures left are affecting your meditation. In short, a whole lot of circumspection in your activity both on and off the meditation cushion, but I think that's key to an effective practice anyway.
Well, those are my thoughts.
Re: Is jhana possible?
Howdy thereductor!
Thanks for the details - answered some lingering questions and raised others ...
Where do nimitta fit in to sutta style?
Sorry i am really not clear on which style of jhana belongs to whom and how they differ...
Metta
Thanks for the details - answered some lingering questions and raised others ...
Is there a simple way to list the varieties and the differences?thereductor wrote:Oh, and in terms of what form of jhana I cultivate, I am interested in sutta style, which requires a good bit of work to attain and maintain.
Where do nimitta fit in to sutta style?
So the sutta style is more pleasurable because it allows more perceptions or the commentary style is more pleasurable because of fewer perceptions - or do i have that backwards?thereductor wrote:The jhana style of the commentaries is, I have come to think, the sutta style taken to an extreme in terms of what perceptions are able/allowed to arise... and it has to be asked how narrowing perceptions to such a degree benefits the meditator, other than the pleasure factor.
Sorry i am really not clear on which style of jhana belongs to whom and how they differ...
Metta
Re: Is jhana possible?
Duh ~ reading the above - Kenshou's link ~ helped.
Sutta - less absorption - more accessible
Visuddhimagga / Abidhamma - more absorption - less accessible
i am nagged by a remembrance of a sutta that said "no jhana - no vipassana" - is this correct?
Nimitta are not as pampered, er ... ah - developed and prominent in the sutta style?
still feeling
Metta
Sutta - less absorption - more accessible
Visuddhimagga / Abidhamma - more absorption - less accessible
i am nagged by a remembrance of a sutta that said "no jhana - no vipassana" - is this correct?
Nimitta are not as pampered, er ... ah - developed and prominent in the sutta style?
still feeling
Metta
Re: Is jhana possible?
Hi Annica,
Yes, as you said, the link Kenshou gave has a reasonable summary and has several references/links.
The (usually visual) nimittas associated with increased absorption are not described in any sort of detail in the Suttas, but are described in great detail in the Visuddhimagga and by various modern teachers, including some, such as Ajahn Brahm, who generally focus more on Suttas than Commentary. One might conclude, therefore, that they are useful.
Mike
Yes, as you said, the link Kenshou gave has a reasonable summary and has several references/links.
The (usually visual) nimittas associated with increased absorption are not described in any sort of detail in the Suttas, but are described in great detail in the Visuddhimagga and by various modern teachers, including some, such as Ajahn Brahm, who generally focus more on Suttas than Commentary. One might conclude, therefore, that they are useful.
Mike
Re: Is jhana possible?
So Visuddhimagga style allows 1 out of a million entry? Is Jhana possible? - NOT LIKELY Visuddhimagga style!
Yet the sutta style - when the Buddha was describing the exceptionally pervasive pains of old age to Ananda - he said his only escape was through jhana - which must then provide 'enough' absorption - or was the Buddha referencing those states beyond the jhanas - but either way those are accessible through the sutta style jhana?
Metta
Yet the sutta style - when the Buddha was describing the exceptionally pervasive pains of old age to Ananda - he said his only escape was through jhana - which must then provide 'enough' absorption - or was the Buddha referencing those states beyond the jhanas - but either way those are accessible through the sutta style jhana?
Metta
Re: Is jhana possible?
Pain is definitely dulled and ignorable with strong absorption, I'd say. It's possible.
Also, looking at the interviews in this book might help shed some light on the distinctions: http://books.google.com/books?id=lQ_ZzF ... an&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike is right that nimittas aren't really a sutta thing. It's more of a smooth flow into jhana, as I understand it. For example DN 2:
If you want to go deeper into this nimitta issue, check this out: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed058.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I also think that the quality of absorption of more suttic approaches shouldn't be understated. The mind is certainly locked in, there's just not so much emphasis on blocking things out. At the very least, it's certain that the body is present in awareness and that the mind is functional, though unquestionably calm. I can provide references as necessary.
Also, looking at the interviews in this book might help shed some light on the distinctions: http://books.google.com/books?id=lQ_ZzF ... an&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike is right that nimittas aren't really a sutta thing. It's more of a smooth flow into jhana, as I understand it. For example DN 2:
You may recognize the last sentence of that paragraph to appear suspiciously similar to the descriptions of the first jhana. And then it goes on to describe the four jhanas as usual. I don't think this is a coincidence.In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.
If you want to go deeper into this nimitta issue, check this out: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed058.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I also think that the quality of absorption of more suttic approaches shouldn't be understated. The mind is certainly locked in, there's just not so much emphasis on blocking things out. At the very least, it's certain that the body is present in awareness and that the mind is functional, though unquestionably calm. I can provide references as necessary.