Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
Ben wrote:Retro, a message to you from Bhikkhu Nanamoli
Thank you Ben and Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
On reading, it would seem the following sections in that range are pertinent to the subject of how dependent origination is to be experienced or put into practical use by way of the Mahavihara mode of instruction.
XIX - 11,12
XX - 7,8,101,104
Interestingly (and I'm happy for someone to give reason as to why they think it is otherwise), the instruction in those sections would appear to be more aligned to a simplified suttanta description of dependent origination, that the complex paccaya-infused Visuddimagga model with its temporal partitioning and reliance on Abhidhammic principles. In essence, there's nothing in those sections that seems to necessitate one particular mode of dependent origination interpretation over another, so long as the links are understood to be structured in the correct order, as taught by the Buddha. As indicated above, I'd be more than happy to hear from someone who wishes to suggest otherwise, or who thinks there is further utilisation of dependent origination in the XVII-XXI range that I may have missed through my unfamiliarity with the schema.
Since I don't find the approach of Ven Nanavira convincing, I don't find the standard interpretation of the Visuddhimagga any more complex. To me, an obvious reading of the Suttas is that some things in the past, some in the future, reading birth and death as having their usual meanings. The stuff in the middle is, on the other hand, very dynamic.
I'm not inclined to go through all of those arguments again. Let's look at the passages Retro mentioned.
As I said in a previous post:
mikenz66 wrote:... the contact-feeling-craving-clinging sequence is a present-moment thing no matter what interpretation of DO you subscribe to.
As for the rest of the sequence, I guess it's "applied" in the same way as other teachings, as a basis for reflection and understanding.
So, in Vism chapter XX the mediator is
XIX 1. Knowledge established by overcoming doubt about the three divisions of time by means of discerning the conditions of that same mentality-materiality is called 'purification by overcoming doubt'.
2. The Bikkhu who wants to accomplish this sets about seeking the cause and condition of that materiality-mentality; just as when a skilled physician encounters a disease he seeks its origin, or just as when a compassionate man sees a tender little child lying on its back on the road he wonders who its parents are.
Then there are several different scenarios that a meditator may follow to achieve this. It seems to me that these involve a combination of reflection and direct knowledge of the presently arising objects to lead to the final conclusion, e.g.:
XIX 10. When he has seen that the occurrence of materiality-mentality is due to conditions in this way, he sees also that, as now, so too in the past its occurrence was due to conditions., and in the future its occurrence will be due to conditions. When he sees it in this way, his uncertainty about the three periods of time is abandoned in the way already stated.
XIX 11, 12 are then reports on alternative ways that other mediators found useful, described in less detail, but with the same conclusion that "... uncertainty is abandoned in the way already stated."
At this point the meditator seems to be clear about kamma and dependent origination. That what arises is due to causes and conditions, and in XIX 26 he sees "by inference from that, all formations are clearly seen as impermanent, ... painful .... not-self..."
XX 7,8 continues in the same sort of way. Everything "past, present, future, is impermanent, formed, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation."
Now at XX 93-104 we are into the insight sections. In particular, "Knowledge of Rise and Fall". It seems to me that here the focus is much more on the actual experience. Just seeing formations rising an falling. This is said to be a , key step, often misinterpreted as awakening, hence the discussion starting at XX 105 on "The Ten Imperfections of Insight".
XX 93-104 involve a combination of seeing rise and fall in terms of the various analyses, including dependent origination. The meditator understands in terms of all the methods of analyses.
As Mahasi Sayadaw's discussion of this stage says:
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... ml#Arising" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Therefore the meditator then believes: "There is no body-and-mind process that cannot be noticed." When examining the characteristics of impermanence, etc., or other aspects of reality, he understands everything quite clearly and at once, and he believes it to be the knowledge derived from direct experience.
If you like the Nanavira interpretation you can certainly read the Visuddhimagga passages using that paradigm. But, as I said above, no version of DO is static, so I don't find it necessary to read it that way.
Thank you for bringing these sections to our attention. The point I would like to end with is that the Visuddhimagga seems to be summarising the experiential knowledge of many people. Far from a dry treatise, it's exactly the sort of thing that a real-life teacher might tell you:
"This meditator found this approach fruitful, another found this useful, ..."
Metta
Mike