Did I reach access concentration or what?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by jcsuperstar »

does it matter? if you cant reach this point anymore than it certainly seems like it doesn't however you could use it as a reminder that there are better things out there still and motivate yourself to meditate more!
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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retrofuturist
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Bodom,
bodom wrote:Somewhere in the canon, and I cant for the life of me find it right now, there is a sutta in which the Buddha says "Only those who have not attained jhana speak against it, but for those that have attained jhana, they would never speak against it." It is along those lines if anyone knows what im talking about?
I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu has said something like that, but that may or may not be what you're thinking of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bodom
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by bodom »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bodom,
bodom wrote:Somewhere in the canon, and I cant for the life of me find it right now, there is a sutta in which the Buddha says "Only those who have not attained jhana speak against it, but for those that have attained jhana, they would never speak against it." It is along those lines if anyone knows what im talking about?
I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu has said something like that, but that may or may not be what you're thinking of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yeah he quoted it in one his study guides but for some reason doesn't give the source.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Ben
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by Ben »

Hi all

I think I remember reading it in the first half of the MN. If you have a copy, just go through the index entries for jhana and I'm sure you'll get it.
kind regards

Ben
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smokey
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by smokey »

Thank you all. I think I can reach this state again if it is access concentration that I reached, I am just not putting enough effort. I forgot to mention that during that state I also experienced unconditional love for all beings.
I know that zen/ch'an means Jhana/Dhyana but I meant that Jhana in a sense of heightened mental state or altered state of consciousness is not practised in Mahayana Buddhism.

Metta to you all. :anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by tiltbillings »

smokey wrote:Thank you all. I think I can reach this state again if it is access concentration that I reached, I am just not putting enough effort. I forgot to mention that during that state I also experienced unconditional love for all beings.
Which is a good thing; however, trying to get back what you had can be just another form of grasping. Simply do the practice and what happens happens - and what does not happen does not happen..
but I meant that Jhana in a sense of heightened mental state or altered state of consciousness is not practised in Mahayana Buddhism.
Not quite true.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by PeterB »

tiltbillings wrote:
smokey wrote:Thank you all. I think I can reach this state again if it is access concentration that I reached, I am just not putting enough effort. I forgot to mention that during that state I also experienced unconditional love for all beings.
Which is a good thing; however, trying to get back what you had can be just another form of grasping. Simply do the practice and what happens happens - and what does not happen does not happen..
but I meant that Jhana in a sense of heightened mental state or altered state of consciousness is not practised in Mahayana Buddhism.
Not quite true.
No not true. Those states are found in Mahayana Buddhism. From a Theravadin perspective they are found layered in extraneous material, but that is not the topic of this thread.
Shonin
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by Shonin »

tiltbillings wrote:trying to get back what you had can be just another form of grasping. Simply do the practice and what happens happens - and what does not happen does not happen..
This is a very common problem with meditation. We have a meditation experience (which is possible because we're not grasping), we enjoy it, we want to have it again, so we try to reproduce it, getting frustrated that the experience we are having isn't the same as the experience we had that other time.

Rather than trying to replicate those feelings Smokey, simply open up to your actual experience, see your experience clearly, this experience right now. And now.
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pilgrim
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by pilgrim »

The paradox of meditation is that the desire for certain mental states often acts as a hindrance preventing that state from arising. To get that experience again , you need to drop that desire.

I remember reading an a book long ago that a Chinese chan master who lived in the previous century, put some potatoes into a pot to prepare them for boiling. Then he went to meditate for what he thought was a short period. When he came out of meditation, and checked the pot, he found that it was dry and the potatoes had sprouted. :anjali:
Freawaru
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by Freawaru »

Hi smokey,
smokey wrote:When I first became interested in Buddhism four years ago, I downloaded a free e-book about ch'an meditation. I have done everything according to book while meditating(e.g. the posture, breathing etc.). I had no expectations. And in about five to ten minutes of meditation I started to feel bliss and joy in area of my heart and head accompanied with equanimity and tranquility . I barely put any effort in meditation. Since then I never experienced anything alike. I do not remember what my concentration was alike during that state of mind, I just remembered what I felt. Did I experience access concentration or what was that?
Were you aware that this state was there while it was there or did you realise this was not your usual experience afterwards?

As to the experienced state itself sounds like an absorption into the fire kasina to me. They can happen spontaneously when the conditions are right.

As to trying to get back to an experience I disagree with what was said. This is not grasping. On the contrary, the Visuddhimagga teaches to become a master one has to practice exactly that: to become able to enter any absorption one wants at any time.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by tiltbillings »

Freawaru wrote:
As to trying to get back to an experience I disagree with what was said. This is not grasping.
Of course it is. He has no idea how it happened. If he was deliberately doing a particular practice, then it might make some sense, but what he described was one of those spontaneous things that can happen , and even if it was the result a very particular practice, one can way too easily get lost in trying to get the experience back rather than doing the practice, being open to what happens. "I want that experience again" is - no matter how you cut it - grasping.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by PeterB »

pilgrim wrote:The paradox of meditation is that the desire for certain mental states often acts as a hindrance preventing that state from arising. To get that experience again , you need to drop that desire.

I remember reading an a book long ago that a Chinese chan master who lived in the previous century, put some potatoes into a pot to prepare them for boiling. Then he went to meditate for what he thought was a short period. When he came out of meditation, and checked the pot, he found that it was dry and the potatoes had sprouted. :anjali:
That is not necessarily a sign of anything desirable
We are not Yogis.
Freawaru
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by Freawaru »

Hi tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
Freawaru wrote:
As to trying to get back to an experience I disagree with what was said. This is not grasping.
Of course it is. He has no idea how it happened. If he was deliberately doing a particular practice, then it might make some sense, but what he described was one of those spontaneous things that can happen , and even if it was the result a very particular practice, one can way too easily get lost in trying to get the experience back rather than doing the practice, being open to what happens. "I want that experience again" is - no matter how you cut it - grasping.
I think "grasping" in the sense of Dhamma refers to what leads to clinging. Clinging refers to the loss of sampajanna. Neither has to do with wanting to enter a specific state of experience.

On the other hand you are of course right that too much "wanting" is not helpful in reaching any state or developing sampajanna in the first place. A certain relaxation and "letting go" and "opening up" is required. I just disagree that the terms "grasping" and "clinging" have anything to do with this kind of "wanting".
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by tiltbillings »

Freawaru wrote:
I think "grasping" in the sense of Dhamma refers to what leads to clinging. Clinging refers to the loss of sampajanna. Neither has to do with wanting to enter a specific state of experience.
Huh? It depends. Having a nifty, spontaneous experience and wanting to have repeat it again is not something any teacher I have worked with, Zen, Tibetan or Theravadin would recommend.
A certain relaxation and "letting go" and "opening up" is required. I just disagree that the terms "grasping" and "clinging" have anything to do with this kind of "wanting".
That is fine, but you have not shown it to be otherwise.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Shonin
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?

Post by Shonin »

PeterB wrote:
pilgrim wrote:The paradox of meditation is that the desire for certain mental states often acts as a hindrance preventing that state from arising. To get that experience again , you need to drop that desire.

I remember reading an a book long ago that a Chinese chan master who lived in the previous century, put some potatoes into a pot to prepare them for boiling. Then he went to meditate for what he thought was a short period. When he came out of meditation, and checked the pot, he found that it was dry and the potatoes had sprouted. :anjali:
That is not necessarily a sign of anything desirable
We are not Yogis.
Yeah, maybe he's just a heavy sleeper.
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