The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Shonin
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Shonin »

As I understannd, this dates from around 1900. I wonder if this concept has older roots within Theravada, or if perhaps it was borrowed from Mahayana.
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Goofaholix
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Goofaholix »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dhammakid wrote: I was saying that it seems Mahayana may have overblown their dedication to the bodhisattva path at the expense of the other vehicle's practitioners who could have the exact same aspiration. Sort of like a marketing campaign.
One could go into a long, lengthy critique of the Mahayana around this issue, which would really not be appropriaqte for this section. Essentially, I think you are correct in the above, but rather than get caught in all of that, just do the practice. If the bodhistta path is something you want to do, it should be a choice from a place of deep insight.
I think Dhammakids marketing campaign observation is correct, but putting that aside if the practice works then just do it as Tilt advises. Better to be Nike-yana in my opinion.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
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Dexing
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dexing »

Dhammakid wrote:It got me thinking about whether or not this whole idea of Mahayana universal bodhisattva-hood and everyone becoming Buddhas might be a bit overblown, and that the Mahayana may have intentionally taken full ownership of the ideal as some sort of political ploy.

But then again, if Samuels is right and it's true that Buddhahood is open to anyone, even in the Hearers' vehicle, then what's the difference between the two schools? Why practice one over the other?
It's a matter of content and what that content leads to ultimately.

That means it's not just a matter of "our ideal vs your ideal". (I wonder where this term "ideal" came from in the context of "the Bodhisattva Ideal" anyway.) It's really not a matter of ideals, but content and stages, actual realizations not simply aspirations.

First of all, the Shravaka vehicle only deals with the illusion of personal selfhood, while the Mahayana — having covered this stage — begins to deal with the illusion of all phenomenal existence- something that is not even touched upon in classical teachings. Hence it is called the Small Vehicle because it only deals with breaking the false view of personal selfhood, not the false view of phenomenal existence. Although it does teach about the Dependent Origination of phenomena (such as the Aggregates, Sense Objects, etc..) and other characteristics that lead to disenchantment, but it doesn't deal with the fundamental validity of it's existence altogether, which leads to seeing the true face of reality.

Therefore, a Bodhisattva is one who has gone through the Small Vehicle stage of emptying personal selfhood (no I-my-me), and has begun to see through the illusion of the entire universe (no inside, no outside)- hence "Large Vehicle".

A Buddha is one who has perfected both, i.e. has completely seen through the illusion of personal selfhood and the whole of phenomena existence, and furthermore has actualized reality, i.e. has attained their so-called "True Self".

Since Small Vehicle teachings don't deal with this at all, of course such a path can't lead to Bodhisattvahood or Buddhahood but only Arhatship, until one has given rise to Bodhicitta and goes beyond the Small Vehicle path into the Large.

To really make sense of any of this would take a deep study and actual practice in both Small and Large Vehicle traditions, rather than merely engaging in theory without practice. The problem with that is, most Small Vehicle followers are simply not interested in the Large Vehicle because it doesn't speak to their needs, which is to uproot suffering through study and various practices. Speaking about suffering not really existing and the world being a fabrication of the mind to them sounds irrelevant to their present situation, because they haven't studied that stage before. It is said, those who can hear the Large Vehicle teachings and not become frightened or think that it is not the Buddha's true teachings, are those who have been through the stages of studying Small Vehicle before and have already studied Large Vehicle in past lives.

Note that this doesn't necessarily mean their wisdom or attainment is any greater, but simply that they have studied it before and have given rise to a faith in the teachings, perhaps based on a glimpse. So I'm not saying one vehicle is "better" than the other. It's all the same path ultimately.

Anyway, hope this helps clarify the position.

:namaste:
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Dexing wrote:. . .Anyway, hope this helps clarify the position.
What it does clarify is that Mahayana really does not understand or address the Theravada. What you have presented is the usual Mahayana polemic against the supposed hinayana, a straw man construct.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Ben »

Dexing wrote:First of all, the Shravaka vehicle only deals with the illusion of personal selfhood, while the Mahayana — having covered this stage — begins to deal with the illusion of all phenomenal existence- something that is not even touched upon in classical teachings.
This is just so wrong.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:
Dexing wrote:First of all, the Shravaka vehicle only deals with the illusion of personal selfhood, while the Mahayana — having covered this stage — begins to deal with the illusion of all phenomenal existence- something that is not even touched upon in classical teachings.
This is just so wrong.
It is the usual polemic that the Mahayana teaches. Maybe Dexing will spend some time here to learn what it is that the Theravada actually teaches.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ben wrote:
Dexing wrote:First of all, the Shravaka vehicle only deals with the illusion of personal selfhood, while the Mahayana — having covered this stage — begins to deal with the illusion of all phenomenal existence- something that is not even touched upon in classical teachings.
This is just so wrong.
It is the usual polemic that the Mahayana teaches. Maybe Dexing will spend some time here to learn what it is that the Theravada actually teaches.
Yes that is my hope, Tilt.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
alan
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by alan »

Dex reminds me of someone. The style. The attitude.
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dexing wrote:. . .Anyway, hope this helps clarify the position.
What it does clarify is that Mahayana really does not understand or address the Theravada. What you have presented is the usual Mahayana polemic against the supposed hinayana, a straw man construct.
Actually I finnd Dexing's post refreshingly honest. What he is saying indeed shows all the triumphalism and assumption of superiority that is prevelant in the Mahayana. even if it is not universal.
The reality though is if one spends time in Mahayana circles that type of view is far more typical than the views of a small proportion of those Mahayana students who join a Theravada Forum. That is the real thing in its natural state. It is absolutely the default view in the Vajrayana, as it is in some Zen circles.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dexing wrote:. . .Anyway, hope this helps clarify the position.
What it does clarify is that Mahayana really does not understand or address the Theravada. What you have presented is the usual Mahayana polemic against the supposed hinayana, a straw man construct.
Actually I finnd Dexing's post refreshingly honest. What he is saying indeed shows all the triumphalism and assumption of superiority that is prevelant in the Mahayana. even if it is not universal.
The reality though is if one spends time in Mahayana circles that type of view is far more typical than the views of a small proportion of those Mahayana students who join a Theravada Forum. That is the real thing in its natural state. It is absolutely the default view in the Vajrayana, as it is in some Zen circles.
Yeah. it is a statement that represents a polemical point of view and it is an argument from ignorance. An amusing variation is played by the OP in this thread found elsewhere: http://www.zenforuminternational.org//v ... 7&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

Precisely so.
For many years I belonged to one of the more progressive and radical of Vajrayana Sanghas and we were told repeatedly that the Theravada represents a playschool version of Buddhism for those yet to cut their teeth.
It was said in a kindly way. More in sorrow than in anger. More in sympathy than in rejection. In fact not in rejection at all. Because we were also told repeatedly that " the Vajrayana starts where the Theravada ends , it contains it " etc etc.
Which is also the default position of the owners of ZFI. Even if it does not quite do justice to the views of all of that forums mods.
Now I dont think that Theravadins should lose sight of the moral high ground..but I do blink and swallow sometimes when it is suggested that the Theravada sees itself uniquely as the superior vehicle...yeah right..
Last edited by PeterB on Tue May 25, 2010 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jcsuperstar
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by jcsuperstar »

ug i really need to remind myself not to click those links to other forums... every time i just end up reading the silliest stuff, which reminds me just how different zen people are in real life from on the internets.... :toilet:
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PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

Its just reality jc superstar..Greory Wonderwheel is only unusual in that he is forthright about it.
I was present at a dialogue between Bhikkhus from Chithurst and Bhikshus from the Soto Zen sangha at Throssel Hole.
The dialogue was characterised by two factors..a search for commonality AND a recognition that real dialogue starts witha recognition of actual difference..not by attempting to fabricate a single pan- Buddhism.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:Its just reality jc superstar..Greory Wonderwheel is only unusual in that he is forthright about it.
I was present at a dialogue between Bhikkhus from Chithurst and Bhikshus from the Soto Zen sangha at Throssel Hole.
The dialogue was characterised by two factors..a search for commonality AND a recognition that real dialogue starts witha recognition of actual difference..not by attempting to fabricate a single pan- Buddhism.
To be picky, Soto Zen does not have Bhikshus.

An imprtant point, of course, for dialogue is that in recognizing the actual differences does not require that any one position trumps the other.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

They were western Soto monks of some kind Tilt..I assumed that they were Bhikshus, perhaps not technically though..
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