Did I reach access concentration or what?

[PeterB]

Or maybe he was accessing yogic states that may be interesting and all that but do not equate to the outcomes decribed in the Suttas.
Samadhi states as described in yogic literature involving prolonged periods of being insensate are not the common parlance of the Theravada. And this is the Theravadin meditation forum.

[Shonin]

True, although 'prolonged periods of being insensate' don't have much to do with Zen either. The story is a red herring.

[PeterB]

Perhaps someone had better tell Pinocchios brother..Red Pine the red herring.

[Freawaru]

Hi tilt,

I think "grasping" in the sense of Dhamma refers to what leads to clinging. Clinging refers to the loss of sampajanna. Neither has to do with wanting to enter a specific state of experience.

Huh? It depends. Having a nifty, spontaneous experience and wanting to have repeat it again is not something any teacher I have worked with, Zen, Tibetan or Theravadin would recommend.

Really? How can one practice the four foundations of mindfulness when one is not able to do it during any state? As long as there is an experience one had and cannot reach it again to practice I don't see how Liberation can be attained.

I guess the question is WHY does one want to repeat it.

A certain relaxation and "letting go" and "opening up" is required. I just disagree that the terms "grasping" and "clinging" have anything to do with this kind of "wanting".

That is fine, but you have not shown it to be otherwise.

I think there are states and one can either cling to them or be aware (sampajanna) during them. Two different things. One can have the experience of jhana and cling to it, one can even have an experience of nibbana and cling to it as described here http://www.dhammavinaya.com/sutta/mn/1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . One can walk and cling to it or walk and be aware (sampajanna) of walking, two different things. One can think and cling to thinking or think and be aware of thinking. One can even want and cling to wanting or want and be aware of wanting. Clinging and sampajanna are the opposites instead of clinging and not-wanting (at least not the kind of wanting we talk about here).

[tiltbillings]

Hi tilt,

I think "grasping" in the sense of Dhamma refers to what leads to clinging. Clinging refers to the loss of sampajanna. Neither has to do with wanting to enter a specific state of experience.

Huh? It depends. Having a nifty, spontaneous experience and wanting to have repeat it again is not something any teacher I have worked with, Zen, Tibetan or Theravadin would recommend.

Really?

Yes. Really.

How can one practice the four foundations of mindfulness when one is not able to do it during any state? As long as there is an experience one had and cannot reach it again to practice I don't see how Liberation can be attained.

As usual, I have not a clue as to what you are talking about. Totally, absolutely and completely clueless.

Despite all your complicating things, it is very simple: You do the practice: what happens happens and what does not happen does not happen. There is not a thing that needs to hung on to in that.

[Freawaru]

H tilt,

Hi tilt,

Huh? It depends. Having a nifty, spontaneous experience and wanting to have repeat it again is not something any teacher I have worked with, Zen, Tibetan or Theravadin would recommend.

Really?

Yes. Really.

I do not doubt your word on your experience with teachers. What I meant was that I do not see how this statement can agree with the Visuddhimagga. According to VsM 4 it is possible to experience a spontaneous absorption due to previous practice (even those in previous lives) as in the given example of Ven. Mallaka. Now, if a person has such an experience and goes to a teacher and tells him about it, wanting to learn how to repeat it, do you really think that that teacher would tell him this wanting, this intention, is wrong? It would disagree with everything written in the VsM.

I think the teacher would start by identifying the experience and tell the person how to enter it intentionally. When this has been achieved he could go on according to the practice described in Visuddhimagga. At least that is what I would expect of a good teacher.

How can one practice the four foundations of mindfulness when one is not able to do it during any state? As long as there is an experience one had and cannot reach it again to practice I don't see how Liberation can be attained.

As usual, I have not a clue as to what you are talking about. Totally, absolutely and completely clueless.

Thank you for your honesty. I am willing to try to explain it to you in different ways but I would need to know what to base my explanation on. If you are interested in it we could go on via pm.

[tiltbillings]

I do not doubt your word on your experience with teachers. What I meant was that I do not see how this statement can agree with the Visuddhimagga. According to VsM 4 it is possible to experience a spontaneous absorption due to previous practice (even those in previous lives) as in the given example of Ven. Mallaka. Now, if a person has such an experience and goes to a teacher and tells him about it, wanting to learn how to repeat it, do you really think that that teacher would tell him this wanting, this intention, is wrong? It would disagree with everything written in the VsM.

Not that you have shown.

I think the teacher would start by identifying the experience and tell the person how to enter it intentionally.

That is assuming that the experience is worth "repeating."

When this has been achieved he could go on according to the practice described in Visuddhimagga. At least that is what I would expect of a good teacher.

What I would expect from a good teacher seems to be a bit different, and I have been lucky enough to have had excellent teachers in the Soto Zen, Vajrayana, and Theravadin traditions. They have all said one way or another: do the practice - what happens happens, what does not happen does not happen.

If you are interested in it we could go on via pm.

I think we can let this one go.

[jcsuperstar]

hmmmm i've had teachers i've gone to after an experience and they just say "oh dont pay any attention to that" or "it's not important" but i think it's because (honestly) they arent experienced enough in meditation to help and i've also gone to other teachers with the same experiences and they'll be like "oh thats piti' or whatever tell me a nifty little story then recommend i just keep practicing see what else happens which gave me confidence in them as meditators who knew what they were talking about since they just knew right off the bat what i was trying to describe and confidence as teachers since they just used that to spring board me back into sitting without letting me get some big head about an experience.

[tiltbillings]

hmmmm i've had teachers i've gone to after an experience and they just say "oh dont pay any attention to that" or "it's not important" but i think it's because (honestly) they arent experienced enough in meditation to help and i've also gone to other teachers with the same experiences and they'll be like "oh thats piti' or whatever tell me a nifty little story then recommend i just keep practicing see what else happens which gave me confidence in them as meditators who knew what they were talking about since they just knew right off the bat what i was trying to describe and confidence as teachers since they just used that to spring board me back into sitting without letting me get some big head about an experience.

The interesting thing is that in my experience a teacher may use an aspect of some experience or other to make a point, to direct one's practice, but never did I have a teacher state that I should try to get it back again, even with something such as jhana practice. You just do the practice and what happens. . . .

[jcsuperstar]

hmmmm i've had teachers i've gone to after an experience and they just say "oh dont pay any attention to that" or "it's not important" but i think it's because (honestly) they arent experienced enough in meditation to help and i've also gone to other teachers with the same experiences and they'll be like "oh thats piti' or whatever tell me a nifty little story then recommend i just keep practicing see what else happens which gave me confidence in them as meditators who knew what they were talking about since they just knew right off the bat what i was trying to describe and confidence as teachers since they just used that to spring board me back into sitting without letting me get some big head about an experience.

The interesting thing is that in my experience a teacher may use an aspect of some experience or other to make a point, to direct one's practice, but never did I have a teacher state that I should try to get it back again, even with something such as jhana practice. You just do the practice and what happens. . . .

yeah i think we're saying the same thing

[tiltbillings]

yeah i think we're saying the same thing

I would say so.

[Freawaru]

I think we can let this one go.

Very well.