Or maybe he was accessing yogic states that may be interesting and all that but do not equate to the outcomes decribed in the Suttas.
Samadhi states as described in yogic literature involving prolonged periods of being insensate are not the common parlance of the Theravada. And this is the Theravadin meditation forum.
Did I reach access concentration or what?
Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
True, although 'prolonged periods of being insensate' don't have much to do with Zen either. The story is a red herring.
Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
Perhaps someone had better tell Pinocchios brother..Red Pine the red herring.
Last edited by PeterB on Mon May 24, 2010 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
Hi tilt,
I guess the question is WHY does one want to repeat it.
Really? How can one practice the four foundations of mindfulness when one is not able to do it during any state? As long as there is an experience one had and cannot reach it again to practice I don't see how Liberation can be attained.tiltbillings wrote:Huh? It depends. Having a nifty, spontaneous experience and wanting to have repeat it again is not something any teacher I have worked with, Zen, Tibetan or Theravadin would recommend.Freawaru wrote: I think "grasping" in the sense of Dhamma refers to what leads to clinging. Clinging refers to the loss of sampajanna. Neither has to do with wanting to enter a specific state of experience.
I guess the question is WHY does one want to repeat it.
I think there are states and one can either cling to them or be aware (sampajanna) during them. Two different things. One can have the experience of jhana and cling to it, one can even have an experience of nibbana and cling to it as described here http://www.dhammavinaya.com/sutta/mn/1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . One can walk and cling to it or walk and be aware (sampajanna) of walking, two different things. One can think and cling to thinking or think and be aware of thinking. One can even want and cling to wanting or want and be aware of wanting. Clinging and sampajanna are the opposites instead of clinging and not-wanting (at least not the kind of wanting we talk about here).That is fine, but you have not shown it to be otherwise.A certain relaxation and "letting go" and "opening up" is required. I just disagree that the terms "grasping" and "clinging" have anything to do with this kind of "wanting".
- tiltbillings
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
Yes. Really.Freawaru wrote:Hi tilt,
Really?tiltbillings wrote:Huh? It depends. Having a nifty, spontaneous experience and wanting to have repeat it again is not something any teacher I have worked with, Zen, Tibetan or Theravadin would recommend.Freawaru wrote: I think "grasping" in the sense of Dhamma refers to what leads to clinging. Clinging refers to the loss of sampajanna. Neither has to do with wanting to enter a specific state of experience.
As usual, I have not a clue as to what you are talking about. Totally, absolutely and completely clueless.How can one practice the four foundations of mindfulness when one is not able to do it during any state? As long as there is an experience one had and cannot reach it again to practice I don't see how Liberation can be attained.
Despite all your complicating things, it is very simple: You do the practice: what happens happens and what does not happen does not happen. There is not a thing that needs to hung on to in that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
H tilt,
I think the teacher would start by identifying the experience and tell the person how to enter it intentionally. When this has been achieved he could go on according to the practice described in Visuddhimagga. At least that is what I would expect of a good teacher.
I do not doubt your word on your experience with teachers. What I meant was that I do not see how this statement can agree with the Visuddhimagga. According to VsM 4 it is possible to experience a spontaneous absorption due to previous practice (even those in previous lives) as in the given example of Ven. Mallaka. Now, if a person has such an experience and goes to a teacher and tells him about it, wanting to learn how to repeat it, do you really think that that teacher would tell him this wanting, this intention, is wrong? It would disagree with everything written in the VsM.tiltbillings wrote:Yes. Really.Freawaru wrote:Hi tilt,
Really?tiltbillings wrote:Huh? It depends. Having a nifty, spontaneous experience and wanting to have repeat it again is not something any teacher I have worked with, Zen, Tibetan or Theravadin would recommend.
I think the teacher would start by identifying the experience and tell the person how to enter it intentionally. When this has been achieved he could go on according to the practice described in Visuddhimagga. At least that is what I would expect of a good teacher.
Thank you for your honesty. I am willing to try to explain it to you in different ways but I would need to know what to base my explanation on. If you are interested in it we could go on via pm.As usual, I have not a clue as to what you are talking about. Totally, absolutely and completely clueless.How can one practice the four foundations of mindfulness when one is not able to do it during any state? As long as there is an experience one had and cannot reach it again to practice I don't see how Liberation can be attained.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
Not that you have shown.Freawaru wrote:
I do not doubt your word on your experience with teachers. What I meant was that I do not see how this statement can agree with the Visuddhimagga. According to VsM 4 it is possible to experience a spontaneous absorption due to previous practice (even those in previous lives) as in the given example of Ven. Mallaka. Now, if a person has such an experience and goes to a teacher and tells him about it, wanting to learn how to repeat it, do you really think that that teacher would tell him this wanting, this intention, is wrong? It would disagree with everything written in the VsM.
That is assuming that the experience is worth "repeating."I think the teacher would start by identifying the experience and tell the person how to enter it intentionally.
What I would expect from a good teacher seems to be a bit different, and I have been lucky enough to have had excellent teachers in the Soto Zen, Vajrayana, and Theravadin traditions. They have all said one way or another: do the practice - what happens happens, what does not happen does not happen.When this has been achieved he could go on according to the practice described in Visuddhimagga. At least that is what I would expect of a good teacher.
I think we can let this one go.If you are interested in it we could go on via pm.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- jcsuperstar
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
hmmmm i've had teachers i've gone to after an experience and they just say "oh dont pay any attention to that" or "it's not important" but i think it's because (honestly) they arent experienced enough in meditation to help and i've also gone to other teachers with the same experiences and they'll be like "oh thats piti' or whatever tell me a nifty little story then recommend i just keep practicing see what else happens which gave me confidence in them as meditators who knew what they were talking about since they just knew right off the bat what i was trying to describe and confidence as teachers since they just used that to spring board me back into sitting without letting me get some big head about an experience.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
- tiltbillings
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Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
The interesting thing is that in my experience a teacher may use an aspect of some experience or other to make a point, to direct one's practice, but never did I have a teacher state that I should try to get it back again, even with something such as jhana practice. You just do the practice and what happens. . . .jcsuperstar wrote:hmmmm i've had teachers i've gone to after an experience and they just say "oh dont pay any attention to that" or "it's not important" but i think it's because (honestly) they arent experienced enough in meditation to help and i've also gone to other teachers with the same experiences and they'll be like "oh thats piti' or whatever tell me a nifty little story then recommend i just keep practicing see what else happens which gave me confidence in them as meditators who knew what they were talking about since they just knew right off the bat what i was trying to describe and confidence as teachers since they just used that to spring board me back into sitting without letting me get some big head about an experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- jcsuperstar
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
- Location: alaska
- Contact:
Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
yeah i think we're saying the same thingtiltbillings wrote:The interesting thing is that in my experience a teacher may use an aspect of some experience or other to make a point, to direct one's practice, but never did I have a teacher state that I should try to get it back again, even with something such as jhana practice. You just do the practice and what happens. . . .jcsuperstar wrote:hmmmm i've had teachers i've gone to after an experience and they just say "oh dont pay any attention to that" or "it's not important" but i think it's because (honestly) they arent experienced enough in meditation to help and i've also gone to other teachers with the same experiences and they'll be like "oh thats piti' or whatever tell me a nifty little story then recommend i just keep practicing see what else happens which gave me confidence in them as meditators who knew what they were talking about since they just knew right off the bat what i was trying to describe and confidence as teachers since they just used that to spring board me back into sitting without letting me get some big head about an experience.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
I would say so.jcsuperstar wrote: yeah i think we're saying the same thing
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Did I reach access concentration or what?
Very well.tiltbillings wrote:I think we can let this one go.