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Craving for Non-Existence - Dhamma Wheel

Craving for Non-Existence

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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clw_uk
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Craving for Non-Existence

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:38 pm

What is the problem with craving for non-existence, isnt nibbana the ending of existence, cesstation so isnt walking the path simply a craving for non-existence?
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bodom
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby bodom » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:51 pm

Last edited by bodom on Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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genkaku
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby genkaku » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:02 pm

Smile just one smile




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piotr
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby piotr » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:03 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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bodom
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby bodom » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:04 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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dumb bonbu
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby dumb bonbu » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:14 pm

Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding.

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bodom
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby bodom » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:17 pm

Does the Buddha Exist After His Death?

The question: 'Does the Buddha exist after His death or not', is not a new question. The same question was put to the Buddha during His lifetime.

When a group of ascetics came and asked the same question from certain disciples of the Buddha, they could not get a satisfactory answer from them. Anuradha, a disciple, approached the Buddha and reported to Him about their conversation. Considering the understanding capacity of the questioners, the Buddha usually observed silence at such questions. However in this instance, the Buddha explained to Anuradha in the following manner:

'O Anuradha, what do you think, is the form (Rupa) permanent or impermanent?'

'Impermanent, Sir.'

'Is that which is impermanent, painful or pleasant?'

'Painful, Sir.'

'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as: 'This is mine; this is I, this is my soul or permanent substance?'

'It is not proper, Sir.'

'Is feeling permanent or impermanent?'

'Impermanent, Sir.'

'Is that which is impermanent, painful or pleasant?'

'Painful, Sir.'

'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as 'This is mine, this is I, this is my soul'?'

'It is not proper, Sir.'

'Are perfection, formative tendencies and consciousness, permanent or impermanent?'

'Impermanent, Sir.'

'Is that which is impermanent, painful or pleasant?'

'Painful, Sir.'

'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my soul?'?'

'It is not proper, Sir.'

'Therefore whatever form, feeling, perception, formative tendencies, consciousness which have been, will be and is now connected with oneself, or with others, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near; all forms, feelings, perceptions, formative tendencies and consciousness should be considered by right knowledge in this way: 'This is not mine; this not I; this is not my soul.' Having seen thus, a noble, learned disciple becomes disenchanted with the form, feeling, perception, formative tendencies and consciousness. Becoming disenchanted, he controls his passion and subsequently discards them.'

'Being free from passion he becomes emancipated and insight arises in him: 'I am emancipated.' He realizes: 'Birth is destroyed, I have lived the holy life and done what had to be done. There is no more birth for me.'

'What do you think, Anuradha, do you regard the form as a Tathagata?'

'No, Sir.'

'O Anuradha, what is your view, do you see a Tathagata in the form?'

'No, Sir.'

'Do you see a Tathagata apart from form?'

'No, Sir.'

'Do you see a Tathagata in feeling, perception, formative tendencies, consciousness?'

'No, Sir.'

'O Anuradha, what do you think, do you regard that which is without form, feeling, perception, formative tendencies and consciousness as a Tathagata?'

'No, Sir.'

'Now, Anuradha, since a Tathagata is not to be found in this very life, is it proper for you to say: 'This noble and supreme one has pointed out and explained these four propositions:

A Tathagata exists after death;
A Tathagata does not exist after death;
A Tathagata exists and yet does not exist after death;
A Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death?'

'No, Sir.'

'Well and good, Anuradha. Formerly and now also I expound and point out only the truth of Suffering and cessation of Suffering.' (Anuradha Sutta - Samyutta Nikaya.)

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Jechbi
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby Jechbi » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:19 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:22 pm

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genkaku
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby genkaku » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:23 pm

Dear clw -- I suppose we can play it two ways: Intellectually, in which case the meanings of "existence" and "non-existence" would have to be defined to everyone's satisfaction, or experientially, in which case each person might use words as tentative means of communication but would otherwise be stuck checking his or her own backyard.

I have always liked the example of a sneeze.

Suppose you have some deeply held faith or belief ... I mean something you take with the utmost seriousness ... perhaps the fear of death. Roughly speaking, you might say that that belief existed ... together with whatever else you took seriously ... as for example the speeding taxi that was about to run you down. You exist, taxi exists, belief exists, fear exists, but suddenly, you have to sneeze ....

In the midst of that sneeze -- right smack in the middle of it -- where are all your heart-felt, existing concerns? How could they enter? A sneeze is a single-act play. It is not some 'other' play. There are no 'other' actors in this play. This is this and this is it. There is no beginning or end, no love or hate, no Buddhism or lack of Buddhism. A sneeze is so much a sneeze that you can't even call it a "sneeze." A sneeze erases the blackboard. "You" are out of the picture. "You" do not exist.

But after the sneeze, you can get back to believing and fearing and philosophizing and talking about sneezes and all the rest of it. Suddenly you exist again, so to speak. But the principle that informs both the "you" and the "sneeze" -- well, what about that? There is no 'explaining' such things, but there is the possibility of examining them ....

And I have no doubt you'll find a better way to examine them than I have. :)

Best wishes.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:12 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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clw_uk
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:42 pm

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Element

Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby Element » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:56 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:02 pm

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Element

Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby Element » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:07 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby clw_uk » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:30 pm

Thank you Element

I think I understand better now when it is said that annihilationism is close to dispassion.
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wakeupnow
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby wakeupnow » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:54 am


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sukhamanveti
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby sukhamanveti » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:17 am

"isnt nibbana the ending of existence, cesstation so isnt walking the path simply a craving for non-existence?"

I found something that might be relevant to your discussion. Thanissaro Bhikkhu argues that Nibbana is not the ending of existence at all in Mind Like Fire Unbound, a book that may be found online here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... x.html#pre

I have not had the chance to read it all myself, but it looks interesting.

With firm determination to stay out of the debate :smile: ,

Ed
Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5

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sukhamanveti
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Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby sukhamanveti » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:20 am

Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5

wakeupnow
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Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:47 am

Re: Craving for Non-Existence

Postby wakeupnow » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:40 am



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