non-violence in extreme cases.

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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 7:06 am

I own a black powder cap and ball .45 cal revolver. There is a pleasure in shooting it. It has a satisfying bang, gives off plenty of smoke and I am lucky if I hit the target with it.

I have a 45-70 single shot open sight rifle which I shoot at targets 200 to 300 yards away.

I have a .22 semi-automatic target pistol with which I use to put holes in paper targets at 50 yards.

I have a .22 rifle that my 92 year old mother got when she was 14. It is death on tin cans.

I have a recurve bow with a 27 pound pull (a girl's bow) which gives me great pleasure to shoot at varying distances, puncturing laminated cardboard targets.

All of these are weapons, which I could use to kill people or animals, but then I could also kill people or animals with my compressed air nail gun, my crow bar, my large screw drivers, and my larger pieces of my cutlery set, my Louisville Slugger, my car, and any number of other things I own.

Interestingly, not one of the these things I own has an inherent nature. They are what I make them, and I really do not give a rat's ass at other's attempt at trying to make other than what they are.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Mukunda » Fri May 28, 2010 7:20 am

Ben wrote:Thus we are seeing the occurance of the superimposition of negative and political personal interpretations of what weapons mean to them and the not very subtle ascribing of character faults of those who use weapons for non-voilent purposes.


Did I ascribe character faults somewhere? :shrug:
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Ben » Fri May 28, 2010 7:26 am

I'm impressed, Tilt!
I would love to give pistol shooting a go one day.
One the things I love about archery is marrying concentration with very subtle changes to technique and posture. I understand its very much the same with pistol (and rifle) shooting.
kind regards


Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 7:46 am

Ben wrote:I'm impressed, Tilt!
I would love to give pistol shooting a go one day.
I prefer rifles and out of all of the above, the old .22 is my favorite.


One the things I love about archery is marrying concentration with very subtle changes to technique and posture.
For me the payoff is watching the arrow fly to its target. The longer the distance, the better.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Pannapetar » Fri May 28, 2010 8:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:I own a black powder cap and ball .45 cal revolver. ...a 45-70 single shot open sight rifle... a .22 semi-automatic target pistol... a .22 rifle... a recurve bow with a 27 pound pull...


Tiltbillings, would you mind explaining how that ties in with the principle of ahimsa? I just seem to have some difficulties understanding this. I know that weapons can be used for making holes in tin cans rather than in people, but isn't practicing with weapons at least in some way practicing violence? I mean, since weapons are specifically constructed for causing damage and harm, isn't there a contradiction with practicing non-violence?

Cheers, Thomas
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 8:41 am

Pannapetar wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I own a black powder cap and ball .45 cal revolver. ...a 45-70 single shot open sight rifle... a .22 semi-automatic target pistol... a .22 rifle... a recurve bow with a 27 pound pull...


Tiltbillings, would you mind explaining how that ties in with the principle of ahimsa? I just seem to have some difficulties understanding this. I know that weapons can be used for making holes in tin cans rather than in people, but isn't practicing with weapons at least in some way practicing violence? I mean, since weapons are specifically constructed for causing damage and harm, isn't there a contradiction with practicing non-violence?

Cheers, Thomas

Let me see. I have no intention of harming anyone or anything with these weapons. These weapons are not aimed at any living creature or at any property of any value belonging to others. Where is the violence? Where is the harm?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby cooran » Fri May 28, 2010 8:49 am

Hello all,

Deliberately intended harm of another being is what breaks the Precept.
Target shooting is not deliberately intended harm of another being, and neither is gardening.

Non-violence - A Study Guide by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... lence.html

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 8:55 am

A ) Managing pain by the dellivery of pain killing drugs which eventually may reach lethal levels, which is standard world wide practice, does not arise from an intention to do harm either. Quite the reverse.

B) Precepts are guidelines for training, they are not laws, therefore cannot be broken. They can be interpreted skillfully or unskillfully.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 9:01 am

cooran wrote:Target shooting is not deliberately intended harm of another being, and neither is gardening.

And gardening involves using a variety of very pointy tools.
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby cooran » Fri May 28, 2010 9:18 am

PeterB said: B) Precepts are guidelines for training, they are not laws, therefore cannot be broken. They can be interpreted skillfully or unskillfully.


Thanissaro Bhikkhu: "The Buddha's path consisted not only of mindfulness, concentration, and insight practices, but also of virtue, beginning with the five precepts. In fact, the precepts constitute the first step in the path. There is a tendency in the West to dismiss the five precepts as Sunday-school rules bound to old cultural norms that no longer apply to our modern society, but this misses the role that the Buddha intended for them: They are part of a course of therapy for wounded minds. In particular, they are aimed at curing two ailments that underlie low self-esteem: regret and denial.
When our actions don't measure up to certain standards of behavior, we either (1) regret the actions or (2) engage in one of two kinds of denial, either (a) denying that our actions did in fact happen or (b) denying that the standards of measurement are really valid.

"http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/precepts.html

Also worth reading at the link below:
Sila (virtue; morality).
~ If you truly care about your welfare, then develop your inner goodness: SN 3.4
~ As the foundation upon which the entire path is built: AN 11.1, AN 11.2
~ As a quality that distinguishes the true contemplative: MN 39
~ As one of the ten Recollections: see Recollections, ten.
~ As a treasure: AN 7.6
~ Guard your ~ well: Iti 76
~ The Buddha's instructions to his young son: MN 61
~ Sariputta's teachings to a dying Anathapindika: MN 143
~ Admirable ~: Iti 97
~ How to recognize a virtuous person: AN 4.192, Ud 6.2
~ How to recognize a wise person: AN 3.2
~ The layperson's code of conduct: DN 31
~ Development of ~ as a way to ease the inevitable bad results of one's past bad deeds: SN 42.8
~ Results of transgressing the precepts: AN 8.40
~ Rewards of observing the precepts: AN 8.39
~ Rewards of skillful conduct; drawbacks of unskillful conduct: AN 2.18
~ Standards of ~ for contemplatives: DN 2
~ Claiming to be enlightened does not justify unrestrained behavior: MN 105
~ Heightened ~ (adhisila): AN 3.88
Articles:
The benefits of morality
The blessings of morality
The precepts as a fivefold faultless gift to oneself and others
"Right Speech" in the Path to Freedom pages
"Right Action" in the Path to Freedom pages
"Right Livelihood" in the Path to Freedom pages
Buddhism and Sex (M. O'C. Walshe)
The Craft of the Heart (Lee)
"The Healing Power of the Precepts" (Thanissaro)
Nourishing the Roots: Essays on Buddhist Ethics (Bodhi)
Violence and Disruption in Society (Harris)
"Virtue" (Mun)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#sila

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Sekha » Fri May 28, 2010 9:39 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:There's a sutta somewhere that states that a person who works for himself only is superior to those who work only for others (and a person who works both for the benefict of themselves and of others is the foremost) (if someone has the original quote please provide it). To me this implies that something like kiling an atacker to prevent others from being killed is not the best way to deal with the situation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

What people here tend to forget is that a person who is trying to harm you or your family, whatever horrible things he might do to you or them, the most horrible thing is what this karma is leading him to, which has no comparison with the suffering anyone can suffer in this world.

In MN 129, the Buddha picks up a small stone and says that the suffering of a man striken by 300 spears in a day is like the small stone and the suffering of hell is like the Hymalays in comparison.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Ben » Fri May 28, 2010 10:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:For me the payoff is watching the arrow fly to its target. The longer the distance, the better.


Of course, I'm sure you're very familiar with the 'archer's paradox'



Amazing!
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 10:04 am

Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:For me the payoff is watching the arrow fly to its target. The longer the distance, the better.


Of course, I'm sure you're very familiar with the 'archer's paradox'



Amazing!

Tis, indeed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 10:10 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:For me the payoff is watching the arrow fly to its target. The longer the distance, the better.


Of course, I'm sure you're very familiar with the 'archer's paradox'



Amazing!

Tis, indeed.

And it is just one thing to worry about.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 28, 2010 10:20 am

I like the archery on Wii Sports Resort

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Ben » Fri May 28, 2010 10:35 am

Thanks Retro
Both Quinn and i watched that video. It looks cool - but not quite as cool as the real thing!
If you like wii archery, you might want to try it for real. Unfortunately, Archery Australia's 'find a club' page isn't coming up for me so I don't know where the closest club/range is to you.
But if you don't mind going over the bridge - there's a good range in Moorabbin:
Archery Centre Moorabbin: 33 Turner Rd Highett, (03) 9553 1483. I think they have a saturday morning and sunday morning session for beginners.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 10:48 am

cooran wrote:
PeterB said: B) Precepts are guidelines for training, they are not laws, therefore cannot be broken. They can be interpreted skillfully or unskillfully.


Thanissaro Bhikkhu: "The Buddha's path consisted not only of mindfulness, concentration, and insight practices, but also of virtue, beginning with the five precepts. In fact, the precepts constitute the first step in the path. There is a tendency in the West to dismiss the five precepts as Sunday-school rules bound to old cultural norms that no longer apply to our modern society, but this misses the role that the Buddha intended for them: They are part of a course of therapy for wounded minds. In particular, they are aimed at curing two ailments that underlie low self-esteem: regret and denial.
When our actions don't measure up to certain standards of behavior, we either (1) regret the actions or (2) engage in one of two kinds of denial, either (a) denying that our actions did in fact happen or (b) denying that the standards of measurement are really valid.

"http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/precepts.html

Also worth reading at the link below:
Sila (virtue; morality).
~ If you truly care about your welfare, then develop your inner goodness: SN 3.4
~ As the foundation upon which the entire path is built: AN 11.1, AN 11.2
~ As a quality that distinguishes the true contemplative: MN 39
~ As one of the ten Recollections: see Recollections, ten.
~ As a treasure: AN 7.6
~ Guard your ~ well: Iti 76
~ The Buddha's instructions to his young son: MN 61
~ Sariputta's teachings to a dying Anathapindika: MN 143
~ Admirable ~: Iti 97
~ How to recognize a virtuous person: AN 4.192, Ud 6.2
~ How to recognize a wise person: AN 3.2
~ The layperson's code of conduct: DN 31
~ Development of ~ as a way to ease the inevitable bad results of one's past bad deeds: SN 42.8
~ Results of transgressing the precepts: AN 8.40
~ Rewards of observing the precepts: AN 8.39
~ Rewards of skillful conduct; drawbacks of unskillful conduct: AN 2.18
~ Standards of ~ for contemplatives: DN 2
~ Claiming to be enlightened does not justify unrestrained behavior: MN 105
~ Heightened ~ (adhisila): AN 3.88
Articles:
The benefits of morality
The blessings of morality
The precepts as a fivefold faultless gift to oneself and others
"Right Speech" in the Path to Freedom pages
"Right Action" in the Path to Freedom pages
"Right Livelihood" in the Path to Freedom pages
Buddhism and Sex (M. O'C. Walshe)
The Craft of the Heart (Lee)
"The Healing Power of the Precepts" (Thanissaro)
Nourishing the Roots: Essays on Buddhist Ethics (Bodhi)
Violence and Disruption in Society (Harris)
"Virtue" (Mun)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#sila

with metta
Chris

I wouldnt argue with any of that. And none of that obviates the need to use our intelligence and rational minds to interpret the precepts for ourselves in any given situation.
Sometimes that means being in line with the consensus view. Sometimes it may not.
Frequently we will discover that outside of selective quoting there is less of a consensus view than we might suppose.
metta P.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 11:10 am

Another example which is less emotive than that involving euthanasia.
And may need moving, mods...

I have a friend who has been a practising Theravada Buddhist for almost 50 years.
For many years he served as chair of a local Dhamma group. He has been a student of Vipassana for 30 years, and has helped many others ( including giving financial aid ) to attend Vipassana courses and so on. His dealings with others are characterised by kindliness and warmth. He is an inspiration to many.
He still works tirelessly for the Dhamma.
He also has a glass of wine or sherry after dinner when not on retreat etc.
He does not consider that a breach of any precept.
Is he wrong ?
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Dan74 » Fri May 28, 2010 12:04 pm

:jawdrop:

Haven't you seen this? http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2578

Not again... !!! :tantrum:

Now I am definitely out of here, before all hell breaks loose... :o

(but don't cheer too soon)
_/|\_
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 12:29 pm

So..is my friend J wrong ? Is he in breach of the 5th precept ? Is his glass of Fino a few times a week a slippery slope that will send him and others influenced by him to hell realms ?...
Does his occasional glass of claret equal suramerayamajja pamadatthana ?
Should he be drummed out of the Buddhist Society.?.
a bit difficult that actually, :smile: as they keep a few bottles of sherry in..
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