non-violence in extreme cases.

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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 28, 2010 12:50 pm

Greetings Peter,

PeterB wrote:So..is my friend J wrong ? Is he in breach of the 5th precept ?

Has he become intoxicated? Has he become heedless?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 1:03 pm

Never to my knowledge.
And the fact that he is not addicted can be demonstrated by the fact that he has done regular retreat for years sometimes for several weeks at a time during which he has observed the eight precepts.

I know people particularly in my work life, who cannot safetly drink at all.
I know others including serious Theravadin Buddhists, who can drink in moderation.
They as you are indicating Retro do not become heedless or intoxicated.
I have a friend who has really severe hay fever...the levels of antihistamines he has to take in order to function at all during the summer render him fairly sedated at times..
Is he in breach of the 5th precept ?
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Virgo » Fri May 28, 2010 1:19 pm

Mukunda wrote:
Virgo wrote:Here is the 14 point code of action from the martial art I study, To-Shin Do, which was developed by Stephen K. Hayes, black belt hall of famer, and Bujinkan 10'th Dan (tenth degree black belt).

Each rank has a code of action to develop and train in.

(note the belt colors may seem strange but in To-Shin Do the learning is structured around learning tactics for the five elements in order and the main belt levels have colors associated with them based on traditional color attributes to those elements, so for example, the belts start with yellow for earth. To make matters more complicated, different colored stripes are needed to indicate the stages within each elements training).

Yellow Belt
I protect life and health,
I avoid violence whenever possible...


I am not getting the logic of avoiding violence by preparing for it. Does this not set up inevitable mental conflict? Avoid violence, but if you can't, engage in it? :shrug:

Preparing for violence is not avoiding it. In my school of martial arts we learn to learn how attackers think and how to try and calm them down. We learn how not to inflame them and how to hopefully diffuse the situation. We learn how to escape from a conflict. Lastly, we learn how to fight if need be. When you know what you are doing in a physical conflict, both you and the other person are safer. You might be able to stop your opponent with less harm to yourself and to him or her. I can bring an opponent to the ground aggressively and then start shouting at them -- the violence may be over. I can put them in a submission move just to show them who is dominant physically, and they may desist without causing any further harm. I may hurt someone just enough for me to getaway, or for someone else to. That is not violence; it is controlling a situation. (hoepefully will never have to do any of those things in real life).

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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Virgo » Fri May 28, 2010 1:27 pm

Pannapetar wrote:
Virgo wrote:This is getting more into politics. [...] Someone may have many guns but never kill anyone with them because they are only a collector.


Only Americans believe that this has to do with politics. It doesn't. It has to do with math. It can be shown statistically that the number of guns owned by a population correlates with the number of death caused by guns. That's all - just a cold and hard fact.

The cold, hard fact is that firearms and other weapons exist and that people own them and will continue to. The other cold hard fact is that some people will use them for harm, but others will not. We can't just remove all the firearms from the earth and throw them in a snakepit .

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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Virgo » Fri May 28, 2010 1:31 pm

Mukunda wrote:Does ANYONE really not feel at least a little apprehensive when seeing some one toting around a weapon. My guess is anyone who hasn't such sankaras also hasn't any need or use for weapons.

:anjali:

I live in the Catskill mountains. I see people toting weapons all the time. They are not going to point them at me. They want deer, rabbits, etc.

If it were pointed at me, then yes, I would feel apprehensive and more than a little nervous.

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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 3:40 pm

seriously! no one is going to comment on the fact that zen monks shoot bows??? all this talk about guns and bows are evil and against buddhism and no one else has anything to say about this point?

i think it goes to show that when you use something in a non-violent way, the violence is gone.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Sekha » Fri May 28, 2010 4:02 pm

To me, touching a weapon is even more repellent than picking up a fresh and warm dogshit. Let alone using it.

But if some people like that touch, what can be told to them?
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 4:49 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:To me, touching a weapon is even more repellent than picking up a fresh and warm dogshit. Let alone using it.

But if some people like that touch, what can be told to them?


yeah but you could easily hurt someone with a throwing dart! is it wrong to touch them??? people that throw darts at a dart board are violent???????? or a baseball bat is frequently used as a weapon, is it ok to play baseball? even the javelin is clearly derived from a spear!!!!!! is it wrong to have it in the olympics??? never tried to throw a boomerang? originally a weapon! cut things with a cooking knife??? originally a weapon!!!!!!!!!!

the machete is an incredibly useful tool for cutting away dead branches from trees. it was originally and still today used as a weapon. should we use a block of wood and just whack at dead branches since weapons should be done away with? oh wait, blocks of wood have been used to kill so... how about we use wet noodles to cut the dead branches because no one has ever killed someone with a wet noodle.

oh wait people kill with THEIR HANDS every day. can they still be used for peaceful things as well??? i'm not so sure. everyone makes a pretty strong point that weapons are weapons only. and if you're thinking "well the gun was originally made to kill." what were people originally made for? our pointy teeth and general instinct makes us predisposed to kill animals for food so we are in the same category and yet shockingly we don't have to use these things to hurt sentient beings!!!!!!!!!!!!

people you have to realize that "weapons" can just be used for non-violent sports and recreation and many other things! you cannot get rid of weapons. they are everywhere and used for allllllll kinds of non-violent things. wake up.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 5:30 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:To me, touching a weapon is even more repellent than picking up a fresh and warm dogshit. Let alone using it.

But if some people like that touch, what can be told to them?
What should be told to them?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Mukunda » Fri May 28, 2010 7:43 pm

Weapons are weapons, gardening tools are gardening tools. Kitchen utensils are kitchen utensils. Even though all of these things MAY be used for purposes other than their designed intent, that doesn't change the fact that as human beings, with all our cultural conditioning, we know a weapon when we see one. I submit that seeing, using, collecting, or playing with weapons, is NOT in itself violence. But such activities do provide nutriment to subtle mental impressions and conditioning that is counterproductive to the spirit of ahimsa. And I do NOT think that means direct intent to commit harm, but rather is a subtle and more difficult to recognize negative influence on our mental processes. The fact that so many feel the need to defend their practices speaks volumes.

So collect, play with, and glorify weapons if you so desire. I do NOT think you are evil. I doNOT think you are violent. I do NOT think you intend to harm others. I DO think you are harming yourself and creating conflict in your own mind and watering seeds of fear in other peoples minds. But people gotta do what they gotta do 'til they ain't gotta do it anymore.

:anjali:
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 7:55 pm

Mukunda wrote: I submit that seeing, using, collecting, or playing with weapons, is NOT in itself violence. But such activities do provide nutriment to subtle mental impressions and conditioning that is counterproductive to the spirit of ahimsa.
Utter bilge water. You do not know that from direct experience. It is at best a biased guess.

And I do NOT think that means direct intent to commit harm, but rather is a subtle and more difficult to recognize negative influence on our mental processes. The fact that so many feel the need to defend their practices speaks volumes.
And your continued attack does not speak volumes?

So collect, play with, and glorify weapons if you so desire. I do NOT think you are evil. I doNOT think you are violent. I do NOT think you intend to harm others. I DO think you are harming yourself and creating conflict in your own mind and watering seeds of fear in other peoples minds. But people gotta do what they gotta do 'til they ain't gotta do it anymore.
Sorry, but your opinion on this is just your opinion, based upon your biases and whatever that goes with them.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Mukunda » Fri May 28, 2010 8:01 pm

PeterB wrote:Another example which is less emotive than that involving euthanasia.
And may need moving, mods...

I have a friend who has been a practising Theravada Buddhist for almost 50 years.
For many years he served as chair of a local Dhamma group. He has been a student of Vipassana for 30 years, and has helped many others ( including giving financial aid ) to attend Vipassana courses and so on. His dealings with others are characterised by kindliness and warmth. He is an inspiration to many.
He still works tirelessly for the Dhamma.
He also has a glass of wine or sherry after dinner when not on retreat etc.
He does not consider that a breach of any precept.
Is he wrong ?


The precept as was given to me is "I undertake the precept to abstain from alcohol and drugs causing heedlessness." It does not say "abstain from intoxication or heedlessness".

I don't understand why some one in such a position, who seems to have some influence on others, would do something that may not cause them self problems but creates confusion in minds of others. What's more important, enjoying an occasional glass of wine or sherry, or the mental well being of those sangha members over whom he has influence? It's not like the wine is a requirement for sustaining life or promoting well being.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Mukunda » Fri May 28, 2010 8:08 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Utter bilge water. You do not know that from direct experience. It is at best a biased guess.
And your continued attack does not speak volumes?
Sorry, but your opinion on this is just your opinion, based upon your biases and whatever that goes with them.


I'm not sure how you can possibly know what I know from direct experience.

Continued attack? :shrug: Maybe this is why really feel the need for weapons.

And yes, it is just my opinion based on my biases and experiences. Just as yours is.

And since there is the perception of being attacked (where ever THAT came from) I don't see the point in carrying on.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby bodom » Fri May 28, 2010 8:32 pm

"And this is the way to understand how it is that because of defensiveness various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. If there were no defensiveness at all, in any way, of anything anywhere, in the utter absence of defensiveness, from the cessation of defensiveness, would various evil, unskillful phenomena — the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies — come into play?" - Maha-nidana Sutta: The Great Causes Discourse DN 15


:anjali:
Last edited by bodom on Fri May 28, 2010 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri May 28, 2010 8:33 pm

if there is one thing I cannot stand it is intolerance. ;)
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 8:35 pm

Mukunda wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Utter bilge water. You do not know that from direct experience. It is at best a biased guess.
And your continued attack does not speak volumes?
Sorry, but your opinion on this is just your opinion, based upon your biases and whatever that goes with them.


I'm not sure how you can possibly know what I know from direct experience.
Do you know my mind by direct experience? Your above incontinent statement suggests that you do think you know: But such activities do provide nutriment to subtle mental impressions and conditioning that is counterproductive to the spirit of ahimsa. The reality is that you cannot make such a statement directly or by implication about another unless you are claiming iddhis. Are you claiming iddhas?

Continued attack? May this is why really feel the need for weapons.
Again, with your your trying to take a poke at those who you see that are wrong, who do not agree with you.

And yes, it is just my opinion based on my biases and experiences. Just as yours is.
Except that difference is that after 40 years of practice, I can speak about my motivations with some degree of authority. And I can say that your attempts at such characterizations are meaningless in my case, even when you try to play this silly game:
So collect, play with, and glorify weapons if you so desire. I do NOT think you are evil. I doNOT think you are violent. I do NOT think you intend to harm others. I DO think you are harming yourself and creating conflict in your own mind and watering seeds of fear in other peoples minds. But people gotta do what they gotta do 'til they ain't gotta do it anymore.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Mukunda » Fri May 28, 2010 8:40 pm

zac wrote:seriously! no one is going to comment on the fact that zen monks shoot bows??? all this talk about guns and bows are evil and against buddhism and no one else has anything to say about this point?


This being a Theravadin forum, and me following Theravadin teachings, I really couldn't care less what Zen monks do.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Mukunda » Fri May 28, 2010 8:47 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Mukunda wrote:Continued attack? May this is why really feel the need for weapons.
Again, with your your trying to take a poke at those who you see that are wrong, who do not agree with you.


Not poking fun at anyone sir. Just an opinion and a heartfelt concern. May you safe, happy, healthy and peaceful.
:anjali:
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 28, 2010 8:51 pm

Mukunda wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mukunda wrote:Continued attack? May this is why really feel the need for weapons.
Again, with your your trying to take a poke at those who you see that are wrong, who do not agree with you.


Not poking fun at anyone sir. Just an opinion and a heartfelt concern. May you safe, happy, healthy and peaceful.
I did not say your were poking fun. Read what I wrote, but first read what you wrote and try to see it from an-other's eye's.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Postby Mukunda » Fri May 28, 2010 9:08 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Read what I wrote, but first read what you wrote and try to see it from an-other's eye's.


Not poking either. Sorry you feel that way. Be well.
:anjali:
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