tibetan buddhism rocks!

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tibetan buddhism rocks!

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 4:37 pm

i love tibetan buddhism.
Last edited by dhammastudier on Fri May 28, 2010 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 4:51 pm

The Vajrayana is Buddhism. It may be Buddhism with strong cutural overtones. It may have embraced various concepts that seem strange to a follower of the Theravada, but it is Buddhism.
It has the same 4 Noble Truths. the same 8 fold path. The same Three Jewels. The same Dependant Origination. ( a doctrine not found outside Buddhism and which is absolutely key ). Many of its meditation techniques are identical. It has the same goal.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby Agent » Fri May 28, 2010 4:56 pm

Wow. Not gonna say I don't agree with you on many of those points, but is your motivation here based on an interest in discussion or just putting down other religions? If discussion, I think it may be better to post this somewhere that has more people who currently practice Vajrayana and could discuss and explain their practice. It's a bit too easy to attack a religion on a forum where the vast majority of the members do not practice that religion.
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 5:14 pm

Agent wrote:Wow. Not gonna say I don't agree with you on many of those points, but is your motivation here based on an interest in discussion or just putting down other religions? If discussion, I think it may be better to post this somewhere that has more people who currently practice Vajrayana and could discuss and explain their practice. It's a bit too easy to attack a religion on a forum where the vast majority of the members do not practice that religion.


oh don't be like that. i clearly stated that i really like the religion. i just want to hear people's opinions on this. i'm not trying to be mean :(.

i am very open to religion in general and i think that they all have good things to teach us! I LOVE STUDYING RELIGION! TIBETAN BUDDHISM IS SUPER COOL! i'm just debating the legitimacy of the usage of the title "buddhism".
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby sukhamanveti » Fri May 28, 2010 5:17 pm

Hi, zac. I believe that you are misinformed, but I applaud your enthusiasm for the Buddha's teaching.

The many buddhas and the idea of buddhas surviving death in Tibetan Buddhism do not come from Bon. They come from Mahayana Buddhist Sutras (e.g., "Though he abides in the sphere of nirvana, he appears upon the face of the earth." The Sanghata Sutra). The Buddhism of Tibet is primarily based on Buddhism as taught at the monastic university of Nalanda in India, which existed from the 2nd century C.E. (or some say the 5th) to the 12th century. It relies heavily upon the thought of such Indian (Mahayana) Buddhist teachers as Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Shantideva, Shantarakshita, Kamalashila, Dignaga, Dharmakirti, and the like. As PeterB points out, it embraces all of the basics of Buddhism.

> many of them are depicted drinking human skulls full of blood, eating human flesh, surrounded by fire, etc. i'm pretty sure if you have reached
> enlightenement and are a buddha you do not murder and eat any sentient beings and especially not humans!!!

You are taking iconographic symbolism too literally. See Images of Enlightenment by Landaw and Weber for explanations of the symbols.

Best regards.

With metta,

Ed
Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 5:19 pm

PeterB wrote:The Vajrayana is Buddhism. It may be Buddhism with strong cutural overtones. It may have embraced various concepts that seem strange to a follower of the Theravada, but it is Buddhism.
It has the same 4 Noble Truths. the same 8 fold path. The same Three Jewels. The same Dependant Origination. ( a doctrine not found outside Buddhism and which is absolutely key ). Many of its meditation techniques are identical. It has the same goal.


right, so then if you put those characteristics onto american indian religion would it be buddhism? in fact from that standpoint you could put those into ANY religion and still keep all the things that clash with buddhist teachings and still call it buddhism. i think the non buddhist elements out weigh the buddhist ones and therefore it's a buddhist influenced religion not buddhism. there is so much focus on prayer and divination that the things you just wrote pale by comparison and get left in the dust by many practitioners because it's easier to pray for your problems to go away than to cultivate mindfulness and meditation and contemplate the truths/way. and as i just said as an example, many of the teachings clash with what the buddha taught.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby Sobeh » Fri May 28, 2010 5:20 pm

Vajrayana also uses nearly the same Vinaya as Theravadan monks, although their Bodhisattva vows are extra.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 5:25 pm

sukhamanveti wrote:Hi, zac. I believe that you are misinformed, but I applaud your enthusiasm for the Buddha's teaching.

The many buddhas and the idea of buddhas surviving death in Tibetan Buddhism do not come from Bon. They come from Mahayana Buddhist Sutras (e.g., "Though he abides in the sphere of nirvana, he appears upon the face of the earth." The Sanghata Sutra). The Buddhism of Tibet is primarily based on Buddhism as taught at the monastic university of Nalanda in India, which existed from the 2nd century C.E. (or some say the 5th) to the 12th century. It relies heavily upon the thought of such Indian (Mahayana) Buddhist teachers as Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Shantideva, Shantarakshita, Kamalashila, Dignaga, Dharmakirti, and the like. As PeterB points out, it embraces all of the basics of Buddhism.

> many of them are depicted drinking human skulls full of blood, eating human flesh, surrounded by fire, etc. i'm pretty sure if you have reached
> enlightenement and are a buddha you do not murder and eat any sentient beings and especially not humans!!!

You are taking iconographic symbolism too literally. See Images of Enlightenment by Landaw and Weber for explanations of the symbols.

Best regards.

With metta,

Ed

^^^ :goodpost: ^^^
i'm not saying you're wrong by any means but the things i have read say other wise. maybe the buddhist teachings stem from there but all the stuff i referenced comes from bon. also the main point is that the fire breathing gods and what are not just symbols! they are prayed to and worshiped and offered sacrifices. people believe they exist and ineract with humans. when there is a problem people try to appease such and such "buddha" to make it better. this is soooooooo far from what the buddha taught...
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 5:28 pm

Sobeh wrote:Vajrayana also uses nearly the same Vinaya as Theravadan monks, although their Bodhisattva vows are extra.


yeah the vinaya is really similar to a lot of christian monks also, i think that's kind of beside the point. i'm talking about beliefs that clash with the essence of buddhism. but i think this is a good reason why it's accepted as buddhism, the monks that everyone knows and loves live like buddhists but they teach non-buddhist things.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 5:34 pm

zac wrote:
PeterB wrote:The Vajrayana is Buddhism. It may be Buddhism with strong cutural overtones. It may have embraced various concepts that seem strange to a follower of the Theravada, but it is Buddhism.
It has the same 4 Noble Truths. the same 8 fold path. The same Three Jewels. The same Dependant Origination. ( a doctrine not found outside Buddhism and which is absolutely key ). Many of its meditation techniques are identical. It has the same goal.


right, so then if you put those characteristics onto american indian religion would it be buddhism? in fact from that standpoint you could put those into ANY religion and still keep all the things that clash with buddhist teachings and still call it buddhism. i think the non buddhist elements out weigh the buddhist ones and therefore it's a buddhist influenced religion not buddhism. there is so much focus on prayer and divination that the things you just wrote pale by comparison and get left in the dust by many practitioners because it's easier to pray for your problems to go away than to cultivate mindfulness and meditation and contemplate the truths/way. and as i just said as an example, many of the teachings clash with what the buddha taught.


If those characteristics were shared by any other religion it would be not different from Buddhadhamma. The fact is that no other religion does share those characteristics..the Vajrayana however does...you are muddying your own waters by including Bon..
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby Moggalana » Fri May 28, 2010 5:35 pm

It was all a trick (or skilfull mean rather) that allowed them to establish the dharma in this very differenct culture. The teachings of the Buddha have taken many forms, and you can find cultural influences in any buddhist country. Tibetan Buddhism might just be the most colorful, and therefore stand out the most. There are differences, of course, but I would not go as far as calling it NOT buddhism.
Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 5:37 pm

PeterB wrote:
zac wrote:
PeterB wrote:The Vajrayana is Buddhism. It may be Buddhism with strong cutural overtones. It may have embraced various concepts that seem strange to a follower of the Theravada, but it is Buddhism.
It has the same 4 Noble Truths. the same 8 fold path. The same Three Jewels. The same Dependant Origination. ( a doctrine not found outside Buddhism and which is absolutely key ). Many of its meditation techniques are identical. It has the same goal.


right, so then if you put those characteristics onto american indian religion would it be buddhism? in fact from that standpoint you could put those into ANY religion and still keep all the things that clash with buddhist teachings and still call it buddhism. i think the non buddhist elements out weigh the buddhist ones and therefore it's a buddhist influenced religion not buddhism. there is so much focus on prayer and divination that the things you just wrote pale by comparison and get left in the dust by many practitioners because it's easier to pray for your problems to go away than to cultivate mindfulness and meditation and contemplate the truths/way. and as i just said as an example, many of the teachings clash with what the buddha taught.


If those characteristics were shared by any other religion it would be not different from Buddhadhamma. The fact is that no other religion does share those characteristics..the Vajrayana however does...you are muddying your own waters by including Bon..


but if it clashes with buddhadhamma??? there are opposing teachings that make the whole thing a spiritual conflict and make the religion lose it's thunder like christianity with all of it's self-contradictions and paradoxes. buddhism originally was pretty consistent and solid and the vajrayana is all over the place and does not make a cohesive whole.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby Agent » Fri May 28, 2010 5:54 pm

zac wrote:i clearly stated that i really like the religion.

Accusing a Buddhist sect of misrepresenting themselves as Buddhists and then saying you enjoy their mythology is a bit of a backhanded compliment.

zac wrote:i just want to hear people's opinions on this. i'm not trying to be mean :(.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intentions, but the op does read like a list of declarative statements against Vajrayana (which seems to be confirmed by a thread title declaring "vajrayana is NOT buddhism").
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby sukhamanveti » Fri May 28, 2010 6:07 pm

zac,

The beings depicted are believed to be real, but the skulls and other scary stuff are symbolic. For example (from Images of Enlightenment), "his crown of five skulls represents the five poisonous delusions--anger, desire, ignorance, jealousy and pride--transformed into... wisdoms..." (emphasis added) and "the curved knife in his first right hand cuts ego-attachment..." "He tramples on an elephant-headed deity to symbolize his destruction and dispersal of great obstacles."

Even distinctly Vajrayana ideas and practices, such as imagining the world as a pure realm, are traceable to Mahayana Sutras, such as the Vimalakirti-nirdesa Sutra. Robert Thurman has commented on this in his translation of the sutra. Tibetan Buddhism really absorbed very little from Bon. It was more the other way around. As Vajrayana Buddhism, which originated in India at least as early as the 7th century, became successful in Tibet, Bon tried to compete by absorbing Buddhist elements.

The idea of more than one buddha is found in all Buddhist traditions. Theravada teaches that there have been other buddhas before our Teacher and that there will be others in the future. The Pali scriptures name at least 28. Seven are referred to often in the scriptures.

I think that the question of whether a buddha remains accessible or present after death is trivial, because it is not relevant to the question of overcoming suffering or dukkha, which is the whole point of the Eightfold Path. (Yes, Theravada teaches that buddhas are no longer present after death, although you wouldn't know this if you asked some of the laity in Thailand. Mahayana scriptures teach otherwise.)

As for the problem of fortune-telling, Theravada countries are not immune from this, despite having scriptures which reject it.

Best regards.

Ed
Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 6:11 pm

Having had experience of both I would say that divination is more common in Thailand than it is among the Tibetans.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby Zom » Fri May 28, 2010 6:16 pm

I would distinguish between Buddha teachings and buddhism. These two are not the same 8-)
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 6:36 pm

Zom wrote:I would distinguish between Buddha teachings and buddhism. These two are not the same 8-)

True. And Vajrayana and Theravada both have their origin in the Buddhas teachings. The Theravada is more obviously and directly the result of those teachings imo.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 7:52 pm

ok guys a lot of intelligent points! thanx very much.

in the end though what you are saying is that as long as a religion has the core buddhist teachings it is buddhism, EVEN IF THE OTHER TEACHINGS OF THAT RELIGION CONTRADICT THEM. this means that if a religion taught that life was joy, people should be mindless and always multi-tasking, violence is ok, wrong speech is good, things arise independently, etc. that if they then adopted the opposite buddhist ideals but still taught these opposing views then it is ok to call this buddhism. think about it. buddha said get away from hindu multi-god ideas and other rituals. tibet has multi god ideas and similar rituals. opposite even though they also teach the other stuff. also non-violence to animals. tibetan buddhism has sacrificial rituals in which animals are killed as offerings to their gods. so even if you're a tibetan buddhist practicing the core values you are screwing up your karma by killing animals so these opposite teachings are bad for practitioners no matter how you look at it.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby dhammastudier » Fri May 28, 2010 7:54 pm

Agent wrote:
zac wrote:i clearly stated that i really like the religion.

Accusing a Buddhist sect of misrepresenting themselves as Buddhists and then saying you enjoy their mythology is a bit of a backhanded compliment.

zac wrote:i just want to hear people's opinions on this. i'm not trying to be mean :(.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intentions, but the op does read like a list of declarative statements against Vajrayana (which seems to be confirmed by a thread title declaring "vajrayana is NOT buddhism").


that doesn't mean i don't like it. it means i don't like misrepresentation and false titles. get over it. leave me alone.
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Re: anyone else notice the vajrayana is NOT buddhism?

Postby PeterB » Fri May 28, 2010 8:05 pm

Zac where did you get the idea that Tibetan Buddhists kill animals...they dont. I think you may be confused with Nepalese Hindu rituals.
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