non-violence in extreme cases.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by tiltbillings »

Mukunda wrote: I submit that seeing, using, collecting, or playing with weapons, is NOT in itself violence. But such activities do provide nutriment to subtle mental impressions and conditioning that is counterproductive to the spirit of ahimsa.
Utter bilge water. You do not know that from direct experience. It is at best a biased guess.
And I do NOT think that means direct intent to commit harm, but rather is a subtle and more difficult to recognize negative influence on our mental processes. The fact that so many feel the need to defend their practices speaks volumes.
And your continued attack does not speak volumes?
So collect, play with, and glorify weapons if you so desire. I do NOT think you are evil. I doNOT think you are violent. I do NOT think you intend to harm others. I DO think you are harming yourself and creating conflict in your own mind and watering seeds of fear in other peoples minds. But people gotta do what they gotta do 'til they ain't gotta do it anymore.
Sorry, but your opinion on this is just your opinion, based upon your biases and whatever that goes with them.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Mukunda
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Mukunda »

PeterB wrote:Another example which is less emotive than that involving euthanasia.
And may need moving, mods...

I have a friend who has been a practising Theravada Buddhist for almost 50 years.
For many years he served as chair of a local Dhamma group. He has been a student of Vipassana for 30 years, and has helped many others ( including giving financial aid ) to attend Vipassana courses and so on. His dealings with others are characterised by kindliness and warmth. He is an inspiration to many.
He still works tirelessly for the Dhamma.
He also has a glass of wine or sherry after dinner when not on retreat etc.
He does not consider that a breach of any precept.
Is he wrong ?
The precept as was given to me is "I undertake the precept to abstain from alcohol and drugs causing heedlessness." It does not say "abstain from intoxication or heedlessness".

I don't understand why some one in such a position, who seems to have some influence on others, would do something that may not cause them self problems but creates confusion in minds of others. What's more important, enjoying an occasional glass of wine or sherry, or the mental well being of those sangha members over whom he has influence? It's not like the wine is a requirement for sustaining life or promoting well being.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Mukunda »

tiltbillings wrote:Utter bilge water. You do not know that from direct experience. It is at best a biased guess.
And your continued attack does not speak volumes?
Sorry, but your opinion on this is just your opinion, based upon your biases and whatever that goes with them.
I'm not sure how you can possibly know what I know from direct experience.

Continued attack? :shrug: Maybe this is why really feel the need for weapons.

And yes, it is just my opinion based on my biases and experiences. Just as yours is.

And since there is the perception of being attacked (where ever THAT came from) I don't see the point in carrying on.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by bodom »

"And this is the way to understand how it is that because of defensiveness various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. If there were no defensiveness at all, in any way, of anything anywhere, in the utter absence of defensiveness, from the cessation of defensiveness, would various evil, unskillful phenomena — the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies — come into play?" - Maha-nidana Sutta: The Great Causes Discourse DN 15


:anjali:
Last edited by bodom on Fri May 28, 2010 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

if there is one thing I cannot stand it is intolerance. ;)
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tiltbillings
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by tiltbillings »

Mukunda wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Utter bilge water. You do not know that from direct experience. It is at best a biased guess.
And your continued attack does not speak volumes?
Sorry, but your opinion on this is just your opinion, based upon your biases and whatever that goes with them.
I'm not sure how you can possibly know what I know from direct experience.
Do you know my mind by direct experience? Your above incontinent statement suggests that you do think you know: But such activities do provide nutriment to subtle mental impressions and conditioning that is counterproductive to the spirit of ahimsa. The reality is that you cannot make such a statement directly or by implication about another unless you are claiming iddhis. Are you claiming iddhas?
Continued attack? May this is why really feel the need for weapons.
Again, with your your trying to take a poke at those who you see that are wrong, who do not agree with you.
And yes, it is just my opinion based on my biases and experiences. Just as yours is.
Except that difference is that after 40 years of practice, I can speak about my motivations with some degree of authority. And I can say that your attempts at such characterizations are meaningless in my case, even when you try to play this silly game:
So collect, play with, and glorify weapons if you so desire. I do NOT think you are evil. I doNOT think you are violent. I do NOT think you intend to harm others. I DO think you are harming yourself and creating conflict in your own mind and watering seeds of fear in other peoples minds. But people gotta do what they gotta do 'til they ain't gotta do it anymore.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Mukunda »

zac wrote:seriously! no one is going to comment on the fact that zen monks shoot bows??? all this talk about guns and bows are evil and against buddhism and no one else has anything to say about this point?
This being a Theravadin forum, and me following Theravadin teachings, I really couldn't care less what Zen monks do.
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Mukunda »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mukunda wrote:Continued attack? May this is why really feel the need for weapons.
Again, with your your trying to take a poke at those who you see that are wrong, who do not agree with you.
Not poking fun at anyone sir. Just an opinion and a heartfelt concern. May you safe, happy, healthy and peaceful.
:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by tiltbillings »

Mukunda wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mukunda wrote:Continued attack? May this is why really feel the need for weapons.
Again, with your your trying to take a poke at those who you see that are wrong, who do not agree with you.
Not poking fun at anyone sir. Just an opinion and a heartfelt concern. May you safe, happy, healthy and peaceful.
I did not say your were poking fun. Read what I wrote, but first read what you wrote and try to see it from an-other's eye's.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by Mukunda »

tiltbillings wrote:Read what I wrote, but first read what you wrote and try to see it from an-other's eye's.
Not poking either. Sorry you feel that way. Be well.
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tiltbillings
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by tiltbillings »

Mukunda wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Read what I wrote, but first read what you wrote and try to see it from an-other's eye's.
Not poking either. Sorry you feel that way. Be well.
OK; then just an example from you of unskilful writing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

This thread is entitled "non-violence in extreme cases."
And
Zac asked: i've always wondered about the extent to which non-violence could be practiced in hypothetical situations.
I work with people who are subjected to domestic violence ~ and of the largest number of categories is Verbal Violence of one sort or another:

Verbal or nonverbal abuse may include:
threatening or intimidating to gain compliance
destruction of the victim’s personal property and possessions, or threats to do so
violence to an object (such as a wall or piece of furniture) or pet, in the presence of the intended victim, as a way of instilling fear of further violence
yelling or screaming
name-calling
constant harassment
embarrassing, making fun of, or mocking the victim, either alone within the household, in public, or in front of family or friends
criticizing or diminishing the victim’s accomplishments or goals
not trusting the victim’s decision-making
telling the victim that they are worthless on their own, without the abuser
excessive possessiveness, isolation from friends and family
excessive checking-up on the victim to make sure they are at home or where they said they would be
saying hurtful things while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, and using the substance as an excuse to say the hurtful things
blaming the victim for how the abuser acts or feels
making the victim remain on the premises after a fight, or leaving them somewhere else after a fight, just to “teach them a lesson”
making the victim feel that there is no way out of the relationship


Maybe the definition of how we see non-violence in ourselves and others could be widened a little?

So .... maybe we could all do a stock-take of our verbal (posting behaviour) and see how it measures up to actually being non-violent ... even our responses to what we perceive as wrong speech by others?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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tiltbillings
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Re: non-violence in extreme cases.

Post by tiltbillings »

This thread seems to have gone beyond anything new or of value.
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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