concentration without object

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Shonin
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Shonin »

Freawaru wrote:Concentration without an object (signless concentration) in Theravada is very different from the "bare attention" or mindfulness or trying to remain fully aware of what's happening (these are known in Theravada, too, of course). It is neither insight with concentration on a stable object (such as breath) nor insight with an object changing from moment to moment (momentary concentration as in Mahasi method).
So what IS it then? BTW, shikantaza is also 'neither insight with concentration on a stable object (such as breath) nor insight with an object changing from moment to moment'.
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jcsuperstar
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Re: concentration without object

Post by jcsuperstar »

in zen (soto-shu) we were taught not to have no thoughts, but rather to just not attach to thoughts, we called it "opening the hand of thought". this is essentially the same as some vipassana meditation techniques i've seen taught in some of the thai traditions. i wouldn't pay too much thought to anything a karate teacher says.
:anjali:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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m0rl0ck
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Re: concentration without object

Post by m0rl0ck »

bodom wrote:Animitto Sutta: The Signless SN 40.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Hey :) call me slow or heedless, but i just actually read the linked sutta. Are there other possible translations for the pali word for heart? The sutta reminds me of concentration on the Witness or awareness, sort of like koan or huatou practice. Is pali one of those languages where heart can also be translated as self or mind or soul?
Would that be considered signless concentration?
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Sat May 29, 2010 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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jcsuperstar
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Re: concentration without object

Post by jcsuperstar »

heart and mind are sometimes interchangeable yes
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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m0rl0ck
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Re: concentration without object

Post by m0rl0ck »

jcsuperstar wrote:heart and mind are sometimes interchangeable yes

Hmm, in that case, i can hardly think of a better description of some huatou or koan practice than the linked doc.
"And then, friends, the Blessed One came to me by his powers[6] and said: 'Moggallaana, Moggallaana, Brahman,[7] do not slacken off in the signless concentration, make your mind steady, make the mind one-pointed, concentrate your mind in the signless concentration!'
I guess the direct sudden path is not new if the buddha was teaching a non developmental path even then.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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mikenz66
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Re: concentration without object

Post by mikenz66 »

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates animitta cetosamadi as "signless concentration of the mind".

He says that the commentary interprets it as: "Insight concentration, which occurs when one has abandoned the sign of permanence, etc."

He says that it is not defined further in the Nikyas but that it's placement after the formless attainments suggests it is a samadhi qualitatively different from those attained in samatha meditation. In SN41:7 there is a "signless liberation of the mind", animitta cetovimutti. In SN43:4 the signless concentration (animitta samadhi is called the path leading to the unconditioned:
... "And what, Bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? The emptiness concentration, the signless concentration, the undirected concentration..."
These passages connected with liberation do suggest that it has to do with insight.

Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: concentration without object

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi translates animitta cetosamadi as "signless concentration of the mind".

He says that the commentary interprets it as: "Insight concentration, which occurs when one has abandoned the sign of permanence, etc."

. . .

These passages connected with liberation do suggest that it has to do with insight.
Very much and it suggests that the mind is not somehow without object(s); rather, there is no longer an assumption of permanence in what is seen/experienced.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: concentration without object

Post by PeterB »

Precisely. No luminosity somehow pours forth and recognises itself. Things are simply seen as lacking essence. No roll of drums. No devas showering jewels. Just the quiet of projections withdrawn.
Shonin
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Shonin »

Yep. Shikantaza, definitely shikantaza.
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mikenz66
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Re: concentration without object

Post by mikenz66 »

m0rl0ck wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:heart and mind are sometimes interchangeable yes
Hmm, in that case, i can hardly think of a better description of some huatou or koan practice than the linked doc.
"And then, friends, the Blessed One came to me by his powers[6] and said: 'Moggallaana, Moggallaana, Brahman,[7] do not slacken off in the signless concentration, make your mind steady, make the mind one-pointed, concentrate your mind in the signless concentration!'
I guess the direct sudden path is not new if the buddha was teaching a non developmental path even then.
I'm not sure what is meant by a "non developmental path". Note that according to the previous Suttas Moggallaana had already attained all the jhanas and formless attainments...

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PeterB
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Re: concentration without object

Post by PeterB »

Shonin wrote:Yep. Shikantaza, definitely shikantaza.
Is it...local ? we'll have no strange items here. This is a local shop for local people.*

*with apologies to non Brits.
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tiltbillings
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Re: concentration without object

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:
Shonin wrote:Yep. Shikantaza, definitely shikantaza.
Is it...local ? we'll have no strange items here. This is a local shop for local people.*

*with apologies to non Brits.
http://www.pachyderme.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Shonin
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Shonin »

tiltbillings wrote:Very much and it suggests that the mind is not somehow without object(s); rather, there is no longer an assumption of permanence in what is seen/experienced.
'Without object' means without object of concentration - except in so far as reality as it is right now is an object of concentration. Awareness is not trained on the breath or any other specific phenomenon, rather it is open and allows phenomena to come and go without judgement, clinging or rejection. It is a very good insight and concentration practice in my experience, whatever branch of Buddhism you follow and whatever you call it.
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tiltbillings
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Re: concentration without object

Post by tiltbillings »

Shonin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Very much and it suggests that the mind is not somehow without object(s); rather, there is no longer an assumption of permanence in what is seen/experienced.
'Without object' means without object of concentration - except in so far as reality as it is right now is an object of concentration.
I would say mind without a singular object.

Awareness is not trained on the breath or any other specific phenomenon, rather it is open and allows phenomena to come and go without judgement, clinging or rejection. It is a very good insight and concentration practice in my experience, whatever branch of Buddhism you follow and whatever you call it.
It takes work to get that. Retreats - the longer the better - are a big help.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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bodom
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Re: concentration without object

Post by bodom »

jcsuperstar wrote:in zen (soto-shu) we were taught not to have no thoughts, but rather to just not attach to thoughts, we called it "opening the hand of thought". this is essentially the same as some vipassana meditation techniques i've seen taught in some of the thai traditions. i wouldn't pay too much thought to anything a karate teacher says.
:anjali:
Kosho Uchiyama! Opening the Hand of Thought is my favorite book on Zen.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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