A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:10 pm

Greetings Will,

Those comments are in reference to the conclusion of...

MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

"Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

"Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

"'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Will » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:42 pm

Thanks Retro, but is "gnosis" or as Bhikkhu Bodhi puts it, "final knowlege" (ānna) identical in every way to nibbāna?
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:48 pm

Greetings Will,

I would treat gnosis as synonymous to liberation or even arahantship, which infers nibbana but best to get venerable Dhammanando's clarification on that if you're looking at a really precise definition.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:35 am

Hi Will,

Will wrote:Thanks Retro, but is "gnosis" or as Bhikkhu Bodhi puts it, "final knowlege" (ānna) identical in every way to nibbāna?


Aññā is synonymous with arahantship (arahatta), the liberation of arahantship (arahatta-vimokkha), and the noble fruition consciousness of arahantship (arahatta-ariyaphala-citta).

The first of these can be used in place of 'Nibbāna' when speaking conventionally (i.e. when talking about the ongoing state of cooledness or extinguishedness in those persons called arahants).

The last two refer to the citta that cognizes Nibbāna, but not to Nibbāna itself.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
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    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Will » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:40 am

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Will,

Will wrote:Thanks Retro, but is "gnosis" or as Bhikkhu Bodhi puts it, "final knowlege" (ānna) identical in every way to nibbāna?


Aññā is synonymous with arahantship (arahatta), the liberation of arahantship (arahatta-vimokkha), and the noble fruition consciousness of arahantship (arahatta-ariyaphala-citta).

The first of these can be used in place of 'Nibbāna' when speaking conventionally (i.e. when talking about the ongoing state of cooledness or extinguishedness in those persons called arahants).

The last two refer to the citta that cognizes Nibbāna, but not to Nibbāna itself.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu


Thank you Bhante.

But this line of yours - "The last two refer to the citta that cognizes Nibbāna, but not to Nibbāna itself" is a puzzle to me. I thought knowing Nibbana was nibbana? "Nibbana itself" sounds like an object that is apart from thought or awareness??

But at least I think I understand that this sort of nibbana is not that of a Buddha - right?
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:04 am

Greetings Will,

I think it means that the mindstate of an arahant experiences nibbana, not that the arahant him/herself is nibbana. Thus, it's an object/subject relationship.

That qualitative experience of nibbana is identical for an arahant and a Buddha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:25 am

Hi Will,

Will wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:But this line of yours - "The last two refer to the citta that cognizes Nibbāna, but not to Nibbāna itself" is a puzzle to me. I thought knowing Nibbana was nibbana? "Nibbana itself" sounds like an object that is apart from thought or awareness??


If the citta that cognizes Nibbāna were Nibbāna itself, then Nibbāna would be just another dependently arisen phenomenon. As it is, Nibbāna is conceived in classical Theravāda as the unconditioned object (ārammaṇa) of a conditioned citta. The effect of this cognition, at the moment of path consciousness, is the cutting off of the defilements particular to that level (e.g., the first three fetters in the case of stream entry).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm

Will wrote:First puzzlement - is it a typo on pages 2-3 re: Sila, where it says that it manifests only as verbal purity? It does not mention bodily purity, whereas the first part of the comments does mention bodily purity. The online edition has only "verbal purity" too.

Also, is the Sayadaw translating or paraphrasing the Pali verses in italics?

I cannot currently access the original disks given to me by James Ross (no floppy drive on this PC), so I cannot confirm if it is an omission or not. It is clearly not a typo.

My take on this is that since bodily purity means abstention from Killing, Stealing, Adultery, Wrong Speech, and Taking Intoxicants, then it cannot be manifested at all — it is the not-doing of any evil deed. However, moral purity can be manifested verbally as the verbal intimation, “I undertake the precept to abstain from killing living beings,” and so forth, or as speaking the truth when asked about some matter, or speaking words of unity in reply to divisive speech, etc.

I once had a copy of the Burmese text, but my knowledge of Burmese is limited. If I can find that again, perhaps I can verify whether a word or phrase has been omitted in translation.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Will » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:28 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Will wrote:First puzzlement - is it a typo on pages 2-3 re: Sila, where it says that it manifests only as verbal purity? It does not mention bodily purity, whereas the first part of the comments does mention bodily purity. The online edition has only "verbal purity" too.

Also, is the Sayadaw translating or paraphrasing the Pali verses in italics?

I cannot currently access the original disks given to me by James Ross (no floppy drive on this PC), so I cannot confirm if it is an omission or not. It is clearly not a typo.

My take on this is that since bodily purity means abstention from Killing, Stealing, Adultery, Wrong Speech, and Taking Intoxicants, then it cannot be manifested at all — it is the not-doing of any evil deed. However, moral purity can be manifested verbally as the verbal intimation, “I undertake the precept to abstain from killing living beings,” and so forth, or as speaking the truth when asked about some matter, or speaking words of unity in reply to divisive speech, etc.

I once had a copy of the Burmese text, but my knowledge of Burmese is limited. If I can find that again, perhaps I can verify whether a word or phrase has been omitted in translation.


Thanks for visiting Bhante; hope you will stay around.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Will » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:24 pm

From page 47 of the book:

Since volition is the key factor behind any action, if one can discard attachment to the nonexistent self in respect of volition, personality view becomes extinct. If personality view in volition can be eradicated from one’s psyche, the other mental factors can never again be associated with the deluded self. That is why the Buddha highlighted volition in describing the aggregate of mental formations.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Will » Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:47 pm

So the mind-bases of a Buddha, a Solitary Buddha, a Chief Disciple, a Senior Disciple, or an Ordinary Disciple vary widely in their range. So too, for beings born with three wholesome roots, with two wholesome roots, or without wholesome roots...


Maybe I missed the definition, but what are these wholesome roots?
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby cooran » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:18 pm

Hello Will,

This may be of assistance:

mūla 'roots', also called hetu
(q.v.; s. paccaya, 1), are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a volitional state (cetanā), and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, in other words, the quality of karma.
There are 6 such roots, 3 karmically wholesome and 3 unwholesome roots, viz.,: greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha).
In A.III.68 it is said that greed arises through unwise reflection on an attractive object, hate through unwise reflection on a repulsive object. Thus, greed (lobha or rāga) comprises all degrees of 'attractedness' towards an object from the faintest trace of a longing thought up to grossest egoism, whilst hatred (dosa) comprises all degrees of 'repulsion' from the faintest trace of ill-humor up to the highest pitch of hate and wrath.
The 3 wholesome (kusala) roots, greedlessness, etc., though expressed in negative terms, nevertheless possess a distinctly positive character, just as is also often the case with negative terms in other languages, for example, the negative term 'immorality', which has a decidedly positive character.
Thus, greedlessness (alobha) is a name for unselfishness, liberality, etc., hatelessness (adosa) for kindness or goodwill (mettā), undeludedness (amoha) for wisdom (paññā).
"The perception of impurity is to be developed in order to overcome greed (lust); loving-kindness in order to overcome hate; wisdom in order to overcome delusion" (A.VI.107).
"Killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, lying, tale-bearing, harsh language, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong views (s. kammapatha), these things are due either to greed, or hate, or delusion" (A.X.174).
"Enraptured with lust (greed), enraged with hate, blinded by delusion, overwhelmed, with mind ensnared, man aims at his own ruin, at others' ruin, at the ruin of both, and he experiences mental pain and grief. And he follows evil ways in deeds, words and thought... And he really knows neither his own welfare, nor the welfare of others, nor the welfare of both. These things make him blind and ignorant, hinder his knowledge, are painful, and do not lead him to peace."
The presence or absence of the 3 unwholesome roots forms part of the mind contemplation in the Satipatthāna Sutta (M.10). They are also used for the classification of unwholesome consciousness (s. Tab. I).
See The Roots of Good and Evil, by Nyanaponika Thera (WHEEL 251/253).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/muula.htm

The Roots of Good and Evil, by Nyanaponika Thera (WHEEL 251/253
http://www.bps.lk/wheels_library/wheels ... 51_253.pdf

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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man

Postby Will » Wed May 26, 2010 1:33 pm

Just bumping up this old thread where study of this wonderful bodhisattva teaching by Ledi Sayadaw was occurring.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Postby Will » Wed May 26, 2010 11:08 pm

On page 29 of the book is this definition:

The material base of consciousness or the mind is called the heart-base. It is the source from which kind thoughts or unkind thoughts flow.


Is the "heart-base" just our heart pump of flesh? If so, why is "base" tacked on to the translation?

This is the link that has the passage: http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Uttam ... gates.html
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 27, 2010 2:55 am

Hi Will,
Will wrote:Is the "heart-base" just our heart pump of flesh? If so, why is "base" tacked on to the translation?

No. An alternative translation is "mind base".

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 4%81yatana

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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Postby Anicca » Thu May 27, 2010 3:09 am

From Abhidhamma in daily life - Nina Van Gorkom

hadaya-vatthu: heart-base, place of origin of the cittas other than the sense-cognitions.


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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Postby bodom » Thu May 27, 2010 3:18 am

According to Visuddhimagga 8.111, inside the heart there is a small cavity where the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 27, 2010 5:47 am

Hi Bodom, Will,
bodom wrote:According to Visuddhimagga 8.111, inside the heart there is a small cavity where the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur.

:anjali:

Yes, perhaps I should have said a little more than:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Will,
Will wrote:Is the "heart-base" just our heart pump of flesh? If so, why is "base" tacked on to the translation?

No. An alternative translation is "mind base".

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 4%81yatana

Mike

The heart/mind base is, as Anicca points out, some sort of support for mental processes. According to ancient Indian physiology this was thought to be located in the heart.
As Bodom points out in Vism VIII.111 it said that:
...inside [the heart] there is hollow the size of a punnaga seed's bed where half a pasata measure of blood is kept, with which as their support the mind element and mind-consciousness element occur...

With current knowledge we might be more inclined to say that the brain contains some of the basic hardware that makes mind-consciousness possible.

In either case, whether you prefer ancient Indian physiology or modern, "heart/mind base" doesn't mean the whole of the physical heart.

Mike
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Postby Will » Thu May 27, 2010 4:04 pm

Thanks for the responses re: heart-base. I found this in a work by Piya Tan:

The Visuddhimagga clearly places the mind (mano), specifically in the heart, in the form (rupa)
aggregate: ‘The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the [material] support for the mind-element and
for the mind-consciousness element’ (hetu,mano,viññaCa,dhatunaB,nissaya,lakkhaCaB hadaya,vatthu,
Vism 14.60/447). The characteristics of the mind are then shown, with its function (rasa) being to “subserve”
(adharaCa) and the “manifestation” (paccupaDDhana) being “the carrying of them” (ubbahana).
Apparently, the Buddha knows of this cardiac theory, but nowhere in the Suttas do we find him referring
to it. Even in the Vibhaga, in the definition of the mind-element and mind-consciousness-element,
the word hadaya is used in a purely mental, and not physical, sense (Vism 88 f).


So it is not crystal clear to me yet, but I will continue to ponder & research.
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Re: A Manual of the Excellent Man (bodhisatta path)

Postby Will » Sat May 29, 2010 11:12 pm

Mental nutriment means contact, volition, and consciousness.

“The past kamma that accompanies one throughout the cycle of rebirth is comparable to a field, rebirth-consciousness is like the seed-grain, the craving that accompanies kamma is like the fertility of the soil — Kammam khettam viññānam bījam tanhā sineho.”

In the above quotation, kamma is the mental nutriment of volition, rebirth-consciousness is the nutriment of consciousness, which provides the seed for a new existence at rebirth, leading to a new material aggregate, i.e. the body.


So the body corresponds to "contact"?

Also, rebirth-consciousness is a mystery to me. Any light from someone?
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