Where to from here? (MN 70 - Kitagiri Sutta)

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Paul Davy
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Where to from here? (MN 70 - Kitagiri Sutta)

Postby Paul Davy » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:03 am

Greetings,

For the first time in full today, I read Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the following sutta.

MN 70 - Kitagiri Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

This really is an excellent sutta.

It starts off slowly with words from the Buddha to some recalcitrant bhikkhus, but really gets rolling once it starts talking about the sevenfold classification of the Sangha. Not only that, but it's replete with clues and suggestions as to what attributes one needs to possess in order to reach that classification and what remains to be done for that type of person. It finishes with the following injunctions (Thanissaro translation).

Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it


and....

For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this: 'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, the Teacher's message is healing & nourishing. For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this: 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return.


Excellent advice for wayfarers on the path.

:buddha2:

Metta,
Retro. :)
“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago and a racist today." (Thomas Sowell)

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Cittasanto
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Re: Where to from here? (MN 70 - Kitagiri Sutta)

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:27 am

Bookmarked, I'll read it later after work
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

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Cittasanto
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Re: Where to from here? (MN 70 - Kitagiri Sutta)

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:21 am

ok read bodhis translation, I am not 100% sure what is meant by contacts with the body? or as thanissaro puts it

There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless.....

added part of the surrounding text for ease of finding but one occurrence (the one I use here) is between endnote 4 & 5

could it be a perception of the body in a certain way that is referred to here? possibly through the jhanas?
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

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Paul Davy
Posts: 15993
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
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Re: Where to from here? (MN 70 - Kitagiri Sutta)

Postby Paul Davy » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:54 am

Greetings Manapa,

AN 9.43: Kayasakkhi Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Udayin:] "'Bodily witness, bodily witness,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness?"

[Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there [see AN 9.35]. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness, though with a sequel.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness, though with a sequel.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel."

Metta,
Retro. :)
“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago and a racist today." (Thomas Sowell)


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