Staying Buddhist in the Military

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
PeterB
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by PeterB »

Goofaholix wrote:My, you have a complicated life.

Putting aside whether you will have to kill people or not and bearing in mind my understanding of what army life is like comes more from holloywood and not personal experience so take it with a grain of salt.

You'll be living in close proximity with other men who don't share your values, you'll have little privacy or space for practice and not a lot of spare time. It strikes me a bit like prison, except you'll be paid and it will look better on your resume.

You probably don't want to make a big deal over your differing world view. I think you'll need to make moment to moment midfulness your core practice and let go of most other aspects of your Buddhist practice that seem religious or require near perfect conditions.

I guess if you still have your practice at the end of it you will come out with a strong degree of self discipline and perseverence, this will help you a lot if you decide to undergo intensive practice later in life.
So actually not different from the lives most Buddhists lead who live in a secularised country. Unless they are among the few suited to the monastic Sangha. Do the best you can to stay aware and compassionate in whatever situation.
If you can do that then soldiering is an honourable occupation.
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Annapurna
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Annapurna »

Wind wrote:That's not what Mukunda is saying. He wasn't refering to himself. He was recommeding Dhammakid to have in person sangha and teacher for support. Someone who can be there in person for him. It is just an additional support rather than just having an online support. Having an in person or "real" support would help him overcome some of the difficult obstacles that lies waiting for him in the military. Online support is good to have but it is still limited and somewhat impersonal. Dhammakid can benefit more if he had a real life sangha whom he can go to have lunch with to give him the needed emotional support which can make a world of difference. Just imagine if you have a friend who is in difficult times, would you have been a better help through contact on the computer or in person? That is what Mukunda is saying when he refers to "real" not that we are fake but we can't be there in person to give that human to human contact.

Ditto.

It's a much deeper exchange with somebody in whose eyes you can look, rather than simply reading what he typed.

Mukunda made this distinction himself:
My advice to you is get as much support from a flesh and blood sangha and teacher as possible. .....if you expect to have any chance of not succumbing to the mindset you'll be constantly around, you are going to need REAL refuge from time to time and REAL support from REAL people.
"Real people", don't we often use the term irl (=in real life, in contrast to on-line, virtual life ourselves?

I don't feel belittled or 'unreal', when I type here, I know I am far away and don't know the complete picture.

And let's not forget, none of us is a Buddhist teacher.

And none of the monks has spoken here, who'd be more qualified than each of us, we're devoted and dedicated yes, but still: we're no teachers. And very far away.

A good teacher, present in person, can give much better advice than any of us, and this is what Mukunda said, I believe, right, Mukunda?

Metta,

Anna
PeterB
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by PeterB »

Not all monks are teachers Anna.
Simply being a monk does not qualify anyone in itself to give advice. I have seen excellent advice from monks. I have also seen advice that semed to me to smell of the cloister .
In the end we have to strive diligently for our own liberation using the Buddhas teachings and also our rational minds and intelligence. There are very few simple answers in life although we are sometimes tempted to choose to see otherwise.
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Annapurna »

If my memory (from another thread) doesn't fail me entirely, then one of the reasons for wanting to join the military is a financial problem.

To pay off a debt, a students loan, I seem to recall...because you can't ordain with debts.

Like I said, if I'm not mistaken, and if this is the (still ) the situation.

However, what makes the military more interesting than any other job then? I think there is also good money elsewhere...

Yesterday I mentioned the situation to a friend who usually happens to come straight to the core point with very dry remarks:

"If he were a woman then, and wanted to become a nun, what then?
Would you recommend becoming a prostitute then, and give advice how to stay mindful of her Buddhist practice???
Would military or prostitution even occur to a mind destined for ordination?"

I will have to say, it made sense.

Like I said, I don't know the background too well, so forgive me if it is not, but if this is it, I agree with her.

Those 2 would be odd choices for a future monk/nun.

Also, I would like to remind of the dangers involved in both jobs.

I know I would get my images deleted again, so I won't.

I still think being a soldier doesn't entail cherry picking of duties, so that you can say,:

"Oh, but I'll only sit at the PC and do logistics."

As far as I know, it don't work that way, but if I'm mistaken, I'd like to know which jobs in the Army don't include the possibility of violent exchanges.

As far as I know, there is no "friendly fire".

And we don't always have peace.

Look at Israel striking, yesterday.

And it's not only about Dhammakid possibly having to defend himself or others, it's about him becoming victimized as well.

Murphy's law....

Anna :anjali:
Last edited by Annapurna on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Annapurna
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Annapurna »

PeterB wrote:Not all monks are teachers Anna.
Simply being a monk does not qualify anyone in itself to give advice.
I have seen excellent advice from monks. I have also seen advice that seemed to me to smell of the cloister .
In the end we have to strive diligently for our own liberation using the Buddhas teachings and also our rational minds and intelligence.
I know, friend. :anjali:
There are very few simple answers in life although we are sometimes tempted to choose to see otherwise.
Very true, thank you. Which leaves the question open if, on the other hand, we can also tend to make simple things too complicated, probably both is true, what would you say?

I'm thinking about a new topic since yesterday. ...


Anna
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Sanghamitta »

Thre is an organisation called buddhistmilitarysangha. With its own website. According to that website there are about 3000 Buddhists currently serving in the US military.
They have their own chaplains.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Mukunda »

Sanghamitta wrote:Thre is an organisation called buddhistmilitarysangha. With its own website. According to that website there are about 3000 Buddhists currently serving in the US military.
They have their own chaplains.
There are currently TWO (2) Buddhist chaplains in the entire US Department of Defense (that's the entire Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines). And the first Buddhist chaplain was commissioned in part, in response to complaints of religious discrimination, just a couple of years ago.
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Fede
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Fede »

Wind wrote: That's not what Mukunda is saying. He wasn't refering to himself. He was recommeding Dhammakid to have in person sangha and teacher for support. Someone who can be there in person for him. It is just an additional support rather than just having an online support. Having an in person or "real" support would help him overcome some of the difficult obstacles that lies waiting for him in the military. Online support is good to have but it is still limited and somewhat impersonal. Dhammakid can benefit more if he had a real life sangha whom he can go to have lunch with to give him the needed emotional support which can make a world of difference. Just imagine if you have a friend who is in difficult times, would you have been a better help through contact on the computer or in person? That is what Mukunda is saying when he refers to "real" not that we are fake but we can't be there in person to give that human to human contact.
I dispute that a face-to-face connection is better.

As a Moderator on a Relationships forum, and as a member of three on-line sanghas (and Moderator on one of them) I know from long experience that when a 'real' sangha is simply not accessible, sometimes the best contact we can have is actually from others interacting with us on a forum.
occasionally, without the "hindrance" of a physical and visual connection, the advice, counsel, opinion and view garnered can actually be more beneficial, untinged as it is by the distraction of a F2F connection.

I know from my own experience, that often, it's not an advantage, at all.
And faced with the single option of an on-line sangha, and no possibility of visiting a real one, I know that an on-line sangha will provide ample and sound input, as well as any other.
Having had no choice but to liaise with a friend on-line only, I know - for she told me - that the support and advice I gave her in one evening, was far superior to that her counsellor gave her, over a period of two months.

And that's all I'm going to say on the matter.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Annapurna
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Annapurna »

Fede wrote: I know from long experience that when a 'real' sangha is simply not accessible, sometimes the best contact we can have is actually from others interacting with us on a forum.
I hope Dhammakid can find a teacher nearby, besides well -meant advice from us, the online sangha.

I'm sure it would mean additional support.

:anjali:
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gavesako
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by gavesako »

A relevant article:

http://rightmindfulness.wordpress.com/2 ... nda-thero/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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gavesako
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by gavesako »

...What’s the difference between mindfulness and right mindfulness? Is there such a thing as wrong mindfulness? A sniper hiding in the grass, waiting to shoot his enemy, may be quietly aware of whatever arises with each passing moment. But because he is intent on killing, he is practicing wrong mindfulness. In fact, what he’s practicing is bare attention without an ethical component. Generally speaking, right mindfulness has to be integrated with sampajanna - again, introspection involving clear comprehension—and it is only when these two work together that right mindfulness can fulfill its intended purpose. Specifically, in the practice of the Four Applications of Mindfulness, right mindfulness has to occur in the context of the full Noble Eightfold Path: For example, it must be guided by right view, motivated by right intention, grounded in ethics, and be cultivated in conjunction with right effort. Without right view or right intention, one could be practicing bare attention without its ever developing into right mindfulness. So bare attention doesn’t by any means capture the complete significance of vipassana, but represents only the initial phase in the meditative development of right mindfulness.

http://www.tricycle.com/a-mindful-balan ... fer=dharma" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Dhammakid
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Dhammakid »

Hello virtual sangha,
I want to first apologize for being absent after so many helpful and informative posts. Please know that I am not ignoring you all, and that I greatly value and appreciate your advice. This is such a dynamic conversation and I hope it continues even after I leave for boot camp. (Update: I swear into the USMC Delayed Entry Program tomorrow morning. I will receive my boot camp start date, as well as get to declare my top 3 military occupational specialities [MOS]).

I'll try to address all of the many concerns brought up in this one post.

First, to Venerable Gavesako:
Thank you, Venerable, for the reminder that right mindfulness must be grounded in right intention and right view. Mindfulness without the moral component is definitely bare attention, and I should not fool myself into thinking that I am making progress on the path without acting morally.

Choosing an MOS in the military:
All branches of the US Armed Forces allow a recruit to declare their top choices for military occupational specialty. There is never a gaurantee one will receive their top choice (or even one of their top three choices). Recruiters, if they are responsible and honest, make every effort to specify which MOS are open and which are closed (due to over-crowding and/or what the military needs most from you). For instance, my first choice is military firefighter, but all indications from recruiters in the Marines, Army and Air Force indicate that the firefighter MOS is crowded and I will most likely not get it. I have been strongly recommended to consider military intelligence since my ASVAB scores (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery exam, the standardized test that informs the military of which MOS' you are qualified) are quite high. I have also been recommended for the Marine Corps Embassy Security Group since I have a strong desire to travel the world and experience different cultures, but do not have a desire for combat. Furthermore, I have been recommended to not make a career out of the military (that is, stay active for 20 years), but instead work in military intelligence and/or embassy security, retire after a couple of tours, and then work for the FBI, CIA, NSA, FEMA or Homeland Security. All of those are possibilities for the future, but they are all dependent on if I can receive the MOS I desire. Again, there are no promises, especially in the Marine Corps where "every Marine is a rifleman" and you will be sent to combat if they need you. This is something I have had on mind for quite some time and I am fully aware of this potential.

My intentions for joining:
My intention for joining the military is complicated, but it mostly involves securing my financial and occupational future after having made some very bad decisions that put them in jeopardy. I have been struggling in the job market for quite some time now, and there just aren't a lot of opportunities out there for me, especially here in Georgia. Many employers have simply ignored my applications and resume submissions, so it's been hard to find a job making enough money to pay off my debt in a reasonable time period. Coupled with my lack of a college degree, you can see how this has been hard on me.

But I don't want to blame the job market or the economy or politicians for my problems. It's my fault - I didn't do well enough in school to graduate on time, and because of that I lost my scholarship. So I had to drop out due to financial hardship. I couldn't pay for college without that scholarship. Then I quit a decent job due to some disillusioned desire to live as a revolutionary off the grid, and ended up back with my parents, where I am today. I have been trying to rehabilitate my career path, but it's been near impossible.

The military offers me a chance to immediately start a career with a salary, benefits and the real prospect of continuing a career after enlistment. Rather than spending everyday submitting applications that may or may not be read by civilian employers, and wondering how I'm going to pay bills and eat, the military offers me the chance not to have to worry about those things. There is the very real prospect of experiencing combat and violence, yes. That's true. But my plan is to make my skills valuable to the military so they will give me what I want and need. I want to show them that military intelligence or embassy security (or firefighting if it becomes available in the future) are the right MOS' for me, and that combat is not. I'm not sure how I'm going to do that, but that's why I have mentors to help me.

I'm happy to see there are teachings from the Buddha specifically geared towards soldiers. I will read and dissect them and take them to heart as much I can.

Real Sangha vs. Virtual Sangha
I have never received a face-to-face teaching from an ordained Buddhist monk, although I have sat with a former monk and several teachers trained by monks. I have been practicing for a few years now, and virtual sanghas have been my main source of learning. I am tremendously grateful and indebted to ES and DW for all they have taught me and continue to teach me. Most likely, I will not have access to a F2F sangha for a few years while enlisted, depending on where I am stationed. So I will continue to rely on DW and others as a source of teachings, learning and community. Hopefully I can get in touch with the growing military sangha through the links provided here as well as contact information given to me from friends.

I would love to sit with an actual sangha, but it doesn't seem likely that it's possible, at least not for a while. So the virtual sangha will continue to be my home.

To Annapurna,
Thank you so much for your heartfelt concern for my well-being and peace of mind, as well as your desire to help me continue a fruitful practice no matter what decision I ultimately make. I do not take your desire to dissuade me from enlisting as "disobedience," especially since I was not and am not in a position to enforce rules, laws or guidelines as to the responses and behavior of my fellow DW members. I simply made a suggestion, but you don't have to feel obligated to follow it, especially if you've made it clear that you are generally concerned for my welfare.

I do want to reiterate, however, that I am not looking for reasons not to join. I already know all the reasons not to join and I contemplate them every second of every day. The vast majority of my family is telling me to join; the vast majority of my friends are completely against it. I am being pulled in every direction right now by the people I love, so you can imagine my confusion and frustration. If I decide to back out now, after having already qualified for the mental, physical and academic requirements (as well as swearing in tomorrow morning), my parents will be very very upset, and will question my ability to make and keep decisions as well as my commitment to securing my financial and occupational future. However, if I continue with my plan to enlist, I will alienate myself from many close friends. My confusion right now is palpable.

In any case, I am taking this day-to-day and leaving all my options open. I will go with my heart in the end. I will listen to my conscious as well as my intellect and hopefully I make the right decision. If this time next year or three years from now I feel it was a bad decision, I will not re-enlist and will start over again.

And just so we're clear: I'm not making this decision because of my family's military tradition. My decision to join the Marines specifically is because my twin and cousin are Marines and they offer guidance for me, but my decision to join the military in general is for many different reasons.

Daily Practice while enlisted:
Some helpful advice on this topic has been given. I think Goofaholix is right when he says that the more "religious" of the practices will be hard to do on a daily basis due to living in close proximity with many other people who are unfamiliar or opposed to such practices. Mindfulness will be my main practice (as it always is I suppose) and I will make every effort to stay in touch with fellow practitioners and teachers. Once I am settled in my own apartment on a base (or off-base) and have a bit more freedom on a daily basis, I will try to acquire Buddhist reading material to help with practice.

I hope this post helps clarify some things as well as inform the rest of this discussion. Thank you again to everyone for contributing and please keep the advice and suggestions coming. I am taking them all to heart.

:anjali:
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bodom
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by bodom »

Best Wishes Kourtney!

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Annapurna »

Dhammakid wrote: To Annapurna,
Thank you so much for your heartfelt concern for my well-being and peace of mind, as well as your desire to help me continue a fruitful practice no matter what decision I ultimately make. I do not take your desire to dissuade me from enlisting as "disobedience," especially since I was not and am not in a position to enforce rules, laws or guidelines as to the responses and behavior of my fellow DW members. I simply made a suggestion, but you don't have to feel obligated to follow it, especially if you've made it clear that you are generally concerned for my welfare.

I do want to reiterate, however, that I am not looking for reasons not to join. I already know all the reasons not to join and I contemplate them every second of every day. The vast majority of my family is telling me to join; the vast majority of my friends are completely against it. I am being pulled in every direction right now by the people I love, so you can imagine my confusion and frustration. If I decide to back out now, after having already qualified for the mental, physical and academic requirements (as well as swearing in tomorrow morning), my parents will be very very upset, and will question my ability to make and keep decisions as well as my commitment to securing my financial and occupational future. However, if I continue with my plan to enlist, I will alienate myself from many close friends. My confusion right now is palpable.

In any case, I am taking this day-to-day and leaving all my options open. I will go with my heart in the end. I will listen to my conscious as well as my intellect and hopefully I make the right decision. If this time next year or three years from now I feel it was a bad decision, I will not re-enlist and will start over again.

And just so we're clear: I'm not making this decision because of my family's military tradition. My decision to join the Marines specifically is because my twin and cousin are Marines and they offer guidance for me, but my decision to join the military in general is for many different reasons.

I hope this post helps clarify some things as well as inform the rest of this discussion. Thank you again to everyone for contributing and please keep the advice and suggestions coming. I am taking them all to heart.

:anjali:
Dhammakid
Dhammakid, yes, I said everything I said out of concern for your wellbeing.

Thank you for taking the time and making this effort to explain and to answer all the questions that arose.

Something you said caught my eye particularly, because i recognized myself in you:
If I decide to back out now, after having already qualified for the mental, physical and academic requirements (as well as swearing in tomorrow morning), my parents will be very very upset, and will question my ability to make and keep decisions as well as my commitment to securing my financial and occupational future. However, if I continue with my plan to enlist, I will alienate myself from many close friends. My confusion right now is palpable.
I understand this feeling only too well, been there, done that.

Quit 2 jobs in a row, and then went to university instead...everybody criticized me harshly!

I met a West Point Graduate. We got engaged.

And then he left for the States.....and I was supposed to follow him....after a few weeks.


But then, about a week before my flight was due, I simply didn't want to go anymore, I had evil premonitions, but was afraid to cancel all our plans, everything was planned, and everybody relied on me, and I didn't want to get scolded again: "You're unreliable". My image would be ruined forever...

I wanted to stay right where I was, go to University, and see my old parents and my friends every weekend.

But I thought I would disappoint everybody in the USA, only my parents would have been delighted, because of course they didn't want their daughter so far away.

The night before the flight was pure torture because I wanted to cancel so badly, but felt I couldn't.

"What will they be thinking of me???"

I didn't know how to contact the folks who would pick me up at JFK Airport in New York.

It didn't occur to me to call the Airport, and have them informed I can't come.

I was so under pressure I couldn't think straight.

When I departed, my father cried! And I still see him before me, shaking, sobbing..

Will have to add here, that my Dad was always a bit clairvoyant, and my bro and me have a bit of that too, and my feeling was bad, so bad, I should have listened to my inner voice, my gut feeling.

Anyhow, my trip was a nightmare, until I flew home, and almost didn't make it back home alive...

Which brings me back to why I am writing this, Kourtney.

Listen to your inner voice, don't worry about what others may be thinking, ok?


So close, no matter how far
Couldn't be much more from the heart
Forever trusting who we are
and nothing else matters

Never opened myself this way
Life is ours, we live it our way
All these words I don't just say
and nothing else matters


I wish you the Best. :hug:

Take care, always.

Anna
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Re: Staying Buddhist in the Military

Post by Wind »

Wish you the best, Dhammakid. Keep us posted. :smile:
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