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Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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retrofuturist
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Freawaru
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby Freawaru » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:39 am


rowyourboat
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:19 pm

I think the suttas are quite clear without us having to generate our own theories which can muddy the waters a bit:

§ 32. Internal & External. There is the case where a monk remains
focused internally on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
As he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, he
becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear. Rightly
concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to knowledge &
vision externally of the bodies of others.
He remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on feelings
in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and
rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives
rise to knowledge & vision externally of the feelings of others.
He remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. As he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
itself, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear.
Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to
knowledge & vision externally of the minds of others.
He remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on mental
qualities in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there,
and rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he
gives rise to knowledge & vision externally of the mental qualities
of others.
— DN 18

Knowing mental qualities of others is not through telepathy- it is part of one of the insight knowledges: sammasana nana- where one realized that ALL phenomena, past present future, near, far, gross, subtle are subject to the same laws of the three characteristics -by inference (even though he has not experienced all phenomena). Otherwise he would not cling to phenomena he has experienced and still cling to others he has not experienced- thereby making nibbana impossible.

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Freawaru
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby Freawaru » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:58 pm


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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:50 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

rowyourboat
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:11 pm

Internally (ajjatta) he is knowing and seeing it within himself. Externally (bahidda), according to the sutta is about seeing the same things in another. Let's look at this rationally: we can't know the minds of others- if that were the case every arahanth would require very special powers and we know this is not the case (based on suttas). The only way we can know of others is by being mindful of their verbal and non- verbal communication, and understanding that their experience of their bodies and minds are the same as ours.

The point of satipatthana practice is to comprehensively let go (of the four foundations, ie everything) at the deepest level. This level of understanding of others experience is enough to do that.

It's possible to make this a problem but there is no other reasonable way to understand it.

With metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Freawaru
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby Freawaru » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:06 pm


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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:53 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:21 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mettafuture
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Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Postby mettafuture » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:35 pm

What do you think the lines "internally and externally" in the Satipatthana Sutta are referring to?

I think they're referring to ways to contemplate objects within (or during) and outside of (during daily life) meditation practice.

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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Postby bodom » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:43 pm

There are a few different interpretations on this matter, for a full account see Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization by Analayo.
http://www.amazon.com/Satipatthana-Dire ... 1899579540

The easiest and most practical way for me is to see "Internal" as representing my experience of Body, Feelings etc. and "External" as others experience of Body, Feelings etc.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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mettafuture
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Re: Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Postby mettafuture » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:47 pm


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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Postby bodom » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Moggalana
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Re: Satipatthana | "Internally and Externally"

Postby Moggalana » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:10 pm

Additionally: He talks about contemplating body externally at about 41:00
Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.

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Goedert
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby Goedert » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:05 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:03 am


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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby Sylvester » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:24 am

I recall Ven Analayo equating the "internal" and the "external" satipatthanas with the first 2 of the 8 Deliverances. It was from his "The Thought World of the Pali Discourses".

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tiltbillings
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:23 pm


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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby bodom » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:27 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Satipatthana: Internal and external contemplation

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:17 pm



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