Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Mon May 24, 2010 12:46 am

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samyojana.htm
There are 10 fetters tying beings to the wheel of existence, namely:

(1) personality-belief (sakkāya-ditthi)
(2) sceptical doubt (vicikicchā)
(3) clinging to mere rules and ritual (sīlabbata-parāmāsa; s. upādāna)
(4) sensuous craving (kāma-rāga)
(5) ill-will (vyāpāda)
(6) craving for fine-material existence (rūpa-rāga)
(7) craving for immaterial existence (arūpa-rāga)
(8) conceit (māna)
(9) restlessness (uddhacca)
(10) ignorance (avijjā)
The first five of these are called 'lower fetters' (orambhāgiya-samyojana), as they tie to the sensuous world. The latter 5 are called 'higher fetters' (uddhambhāgiya-samyojana), as they tie to the higher worlds, i.e. the fine-material and immaterial world (A.IX.67-68; A.X.13; D.33, etc.).

He who is free from 1-3 is a Sotāpanna, or Stream-winner, i.e. one who has entered the stream to Nibbāna, as it were.
He who, besides these 3 fetters, has overcome 4 and 5 in their grosser form, is called a Sakadāgāmi, a 'Once-returner' (to this sensuous world).
He who is fully freed from 1-5 is an Anāgāmī, or 'Non-returner' (to the sensuous world).
He who is freed from all the 10 fetters is called an Arahat, i.e. a perfectly Holy One.


the extent that sensual desire is eliminated as Sakadāgāmi, isn't completed till Anāgāmī.
till arahatship and the elimination of the last 3 fetters we'll always have some form of conceit. with relation to experience, there will be some trace of conceit and ego that follows till that point. the necessary proximate factor to eliminating conceit is the abandonment of all kama-tanha. for developing these habits, while not necessary for eliminating potentials, service is a very important tool among many.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby Ben » Mon May 24, 2010 12:50 am

convivium wrote:for developing these habits, while not necessary for eliminating potentials, service is a very important tool among many.


What does this mean?
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Mon May 24, 2010 1:40 am

for developing these habits (abstaining from manifestation of fetters), while not necessary for eliminating potentials (fetters, sankaras), service is a very important tool among many (for letting go, for happiness, and for developing wholesome qualities). however it will not purify the mind from these underlying fetters, which can only happen in these path moments. in a sense it is therefore auxiliary, while it can also be an integral part of the path along along the lines of sila in general. dana paramis needed vary depending on the person, and their ambitions on the path (fundamental bodhisatta parami). to an extent this comment was made in haste having immersed myself unquestioning in so much burmese abhidhamma over the years which holds its not needed at all for arahatship (e.g. ledi sayadaw). service, along with prayer, devotion, and so on is very helpful advice pertaining to this subject, and to support the eightfold path as a whole.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Mon May 24, 2010 5:40 am

suppression isn't going to help anyone, we are to 'let go of,' renounce, not suppress.
manapa said this very well... there is right and wrong intention in sila as well as service. for example if we have equanimity and non-attachment to the results, and can learn from our mistakes, etc. then it reveals the extent to which pride is skillful. we should never seek to gain any power from the ego of the other, or our delusions, in fulfilling sila. some forms of brahmacariya can be as harmful as no brahmacariya. sankaras can't be eradicated, we can only develope habits, and equanimity, until their respective paths and fruits. arahatship must follow from total eradication of all sensual desire as anagami before the last three fetters can be eradicated.
---
As regards the method of acquiring practical spiritual knowledge, if you find a certain practice increases your evil passions and tends you toward selfishness, abandon it, though it may appear to others virtuous. And if any course of action tends to counteract your evil passions, and to benefit sentient beings, know that to be the true and holy path, and continue it, even though it should appear to others to be sinful. -Milarepa
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Sun May 30, 2010 12:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

SN 35.127: Bhaaradvaajo Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

"How can it come about, Bhaaradvaaja, depending on what is it that these young monks, youthful, black-haired, with the bloom of youth, in the prime of life, never having enjoyed the pleasure of the senses, can practice the holy life fully and perfectly to the end of their days?"

"It has been said, sire, by the Blessed One who knows and sees, the Arahant, the Fully Self-enlightened One: 'Come, monks, whatever woman is a mother, think of her just as a mother; whatever woman is a sister, think of her just as a sister; whatever woman is a daughter, think of her just as a daughter. That is how these young monks... can practice the holy life... to the end of their days.'"
"



thank you for sharing that sutta. i'm glad the buddha said the same thing as every other teacher of brahmacariya--to think of women as mothers, if not literal mothers, divine mothers; that and avoiding looking at women work well. avoiding wet dreams is very helpful. meditating everyday and doing yoga and avoiding many ragaistic foods, and if sleeping in, emptying your bladder, keeping hands by one's sides and off yr body. do headstands. keep busy. :guns:
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Therevada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby Ben » Sun May 30, 2010 1:02 am

Hi Convivium
convivium wrote:thank you for sharing that sutta. i'm glad the buddha said the same thing as every other teacher of brahmacariya...

...avoiding wet dreams is very helpful. meditating everyday and doing yoga and avoiding many ragaistic foods, and if sleeping in, emptying your bladder, keeping hands by one's sides and off yr body. do headstands. keep busy. :guns:


Perhaps you can share with us where the Buddha actually says those things.
Thanks

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Sun May 30, 2010 1:07 am

he just said not to sleep and do sitters practice, or else sleep very minimally, and not to eat much at all.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby Ben » Sun May 30, 2010 1:28 am

OK, that's fine.
We just have to be clear about what the Buddha actually said and what he didnt say but what we find useful. It is so that we don't inadvertently put words into the Buddha's mouth which leads to confusion in others.
Thanks for the clarification.
kind regards

Ben.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby Virgo » Sun May 30, 2010 2:15 am

convivium wrote:the extent that sensual desire is eliminated as Sakadāgāmi, isn't completed till Anāgāmī.
till arahatship and the elimination of the last 3 fetters we'll always have some form of conceit. with relation to experience, there will be some trace of conceit and ego that follows till that point. the necessary proximate factor to eliminating conceit is the abandonment of all kama-tanha. for developing these habits, while not necessary for eliminating potentials, service is a very important tool among many.

Service to others doesn't reduce or remove conceit, only wisdom does.

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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Sun May 30, 2010 2:53 am

generosity is helpful for suffusion in divine abiding or jhana:
A requisite for spiritual progress

"Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the first jhana... the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings], stinginess as to one's family [of supporters], stinginess as to one's gains, stinginess as to one's status, and ingratitude. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; one is incapable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship.

"With the abandoning of these five qualities, one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html

Two types of right view:
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

only the second sort will uproot conceit, but the first develops conditions for the second sort...
having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view... who has arrived at this true Dhamma." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

so foundations...
Service to others doesn't reduce or remove conceit, only wisdom does.

Image
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby Virgo » Mon May 31, 2010 2:33 pm

convivium wrote:so foundations...

I don't understand. Are you saying to others that service to others is a support for metta jhana?

Basically if you authentically want to help someone else it is a wholesome action spurred on by genuine wholesome mental states. Those are forms of kusala and all kusala helps the path. I don't read anything else into than that.

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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Mon May 31, 2010 5:50 pm

Are you saying to others that service to others is a support for metta jhana?
yes.
I don't read anything else into than that.
okay.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:44 pm

abstinence does amazing things for the body and mind and spirit but celibacy is something that connotes suppression. so maybe it is helpful to think of brahmacariya as abstinence rather than celibacy. we are also abstaining from acts of speech and mind, not just body. to pretend to be celibate animals is just denial, at least till these higher stages on the path. we can feed on other things that are on the path, condition the mind in other ways, not feeding the dragons or trying to kill them or ride them, just letting them slumber or fromp about on their own, and at these higher stages burn out naturally...
Last edited by convivium on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:01 pm

convivium wrote:abstinence does amazing things for the body and mind and spirit but celibacy is something that connotes suppression. so maybe it is helpful to think of brahmacariya as abstinence rather than celibacy. we are also abstaining from acts of speech and mind, not just body. to pretend to be celibate animals is just denial, at least till these higher stages on the path. we can feed on other things that are on the path, condition the mind in other ways, not feeding the dragons or trying to kill them or ride them, just letting them slumber or fromp about on their own, and at these higher stages burn out more and more.


The term is renunciation, and for a Theravadin monk it is the renunciation of many things including sex, it doesn't connote supression.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:03 pm

if therevada monk identifies himself as celibate, therein lies difficulties. we aren't celibate till we're on the noble paths. we're just abstaining and shifting our concentration.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:44 pm

convivium wrote:if therevada monk identifies himself as celibate, therein lies difficulties. we aren't celibate till we're on the noble paths. we're just abstaining and shifting our concentration.


As I mentioned the correct term is renunciate.

However celibate is not inappropriate considering the dictionary definition;

cel·i·bate   
–noun
1. a person who abstains from sexual relations.
2. a person who remains unmarried, esp. for religious reasons.
–adjective
3. observing or pertaining to sexual abstention or a religious vow not to marry.
4. not married.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:49 pm

As I mentioned the correct term is renunciate.

In effect renunciation is a process of greater and greater refinement of pleasure, on new levels, with greater satisfaction and meaning, until the End. We're abstaining from habits that don't work as well for us, and refining those that do. Literal terms are fine, but grasping the semantics in our own language is what matters most. Hundreds of metaphors reinforce the same connections till they really click. If renunciation works for you that's perfect. Just talking about it is good for this reason.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:25 pm

the difference I'm trying to make is that abstinence is a choice...
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby Kenshou » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:35 pm

In opposition to what, again?
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Re: Theravada Process of Brahmacariya

Postby convivium » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:13 pm

don't think of it as a dogma or requirement to do anything. just abstain to the things that don't work, knowing the higher order of pleasure is what we really want. from suffering comes faith and from faith comes joy, and the conditions needed for transcendental right view and uprooting these issues. when a rule is imposed upon nature, then nature pushes back. while there is suffering, there is also faith that arises, instead of feelings of anxiety, or remorse.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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