Historicity of the Buddha

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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cooran
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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby cooran » Sun May 09, 2010 8:27 am

oceanman said: if we had proof that this is fake, and that is authentic, then there would be no division


This is not so. The Vajrayana and Mahayana traditions accept that the Theravada Scriptures are Buddhavacana ~ but they say that what he taught was only what could be understood by people at that time. .... Later on, tibetan, chinese and other asian peoples were given other more complex and deep teachings because the general population was more intelligent and enlightened and could benefit from them.

with metta
Chris
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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 09, 2010 8:46 am

Greetings Oceanmen,

Replace "would" with "could" (or "should"?), fix a few typos, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Welcome to the Early Buddhism forum.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby oceanmen » Sun May 09, 2010 9:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Oceanmen,

Replace "would" with "could" (or "should"?), fix a few typos, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Welcome to the Early Buddhism forum.

Metta,
Retro. :)



thats what i call mindfulness of speech, thanks!!
:clap:

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby dennis60 » Sun May 09, 2010 11:49 am

I have been practicing Buddhism for about 23 years, but i can understand the original post and the questions and concerns that are expressed therein. Many Buddhists use "scripture" to justify their personal practice, that borders ( sometimes ) on exclusiveness and self righteousness. As the poster has said....Examine deeply the teachings in Buddhism, and don't take anyone's word for any of it....try it and experience it for yourself. This thread reminds me of a book called "The Five Gospels" by Funk, Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar.... Biblical Scholars scour over the new testament to find out what "Jesus really said" and/or "who Jesus really was". It turns out that these scholars conclude that much of what is written in the Bible about what Jesus said is probably not the case. I think that oral transmitting of stories can contain the general content of the message, after generations of story telling much of the details can be lost. For me that doesn't matter. The heart of the "Buddhas" message is still in tact and it works. :smile: We will never know for sure, but to reject Buddhism because of the oral tradition/transmission would be , IMO, a mistake. Practice what you here and read.....find out for yourself.

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby Sekha » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:09 am

I foolishly thought about this while shaving this morning:

Imagine someone gave you a map leading to a great treasure which you can begin to pick up step by step all along the way, after having gone to the proper place. They told you this map was written by an extraordinary man having lived say 2500 years ago. Then you go to the proper place according to the map and following indications, you move ahead. And you already start finding pieces of the treasure, which you can pick up and enjoy, and you become much wealthier than you can recall having ever been. And it seems more is coming ahead, exactly as much as written on the map.

Then someone comes and says: 'There is no evidence that ancient man actually existed, there is no evidence he wrote any map himself'. What do you tell him?




I just smile

:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

As a sweet-smelling and beautiful lotus flower may grow upon a heap of rubbish thrown on the highway, so also, out of the rubbish heap of beings may appear a disciple of the Buddha, who with his wisdom, shines resplendent in wisdom. -/ Dhp 58-59

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby Kare » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:13 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:I foolishly thought about this while shaving this morning:

Imagine someone gave you a map leading to a great treasure which you can begin to pick up step by step all along the way, after having gone to the proper place. They told you this map was written by an extraordinary man having lived say 2500 years ago. Then you go to the proper place according to the map and following indications, you move ahead. And you already start finding pieces of the treasure, which you can pick up and enjoy, and you become much wealthier than you can recall having ever been. And it seems more is coming ahead, exactly as much as written on the map.

Then someone comes and says: 'There is no evidence that ancient man actually existed, there is no evidence he wrote any map himself'. What do you tell him?




I just smile

:anjali:


:goodpost:

May I join you, smiling?

:anjali:
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby SDC » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:04 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:I foolishly thought about this while shaving this morning:

Imagine someone gave you a map leading to a great treasure which you can begin to pick up step by step all along the way, after having gone to the proper place. They told you this map was written by an extraordinary man having lived say 2500 years ago. Then you go to the proper place according to the map and following indications, you move ahead. And you already start finding pieces of the treasure, which you can pick up and enjoy, and you become much wealthier than you can recall having ever been. And it seems more is coming ahead, exactly as much as written on the map.

Then someone comes and says: 'There is no evidence that ancient man actually existed, there is no evidence he wrote any map himself'. What do you tell him?




I just smile

:anjali:


Very well said. :thumbsup:

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:52 am

:)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby alan » Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:48 am

First off I'd tell him not to interrupt my shaving. A smooth face is very important to me.
Then I'd tell him to go away and not bother me again.
:jumping:

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby bazzaman » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:31 am

.
Last edited by bazzaman on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby sainbhruvens » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:35 am

Ok, so anyone can give reply me if Buddhism existed in China since 200BCE how could it have been invented by the Greeks?

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Kim OHara
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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby Kim OHara » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:20 am

sainbhruvens wrote:Ok, so anyone can give reply me if Buddhism existed in China since 200BCE how could it have been invented by the Greeks?

Simple: Buddhism was not invented by the Greeks. Where did you get that idea from, anyway?

If anything, the learning went the other way - some ideas in classical Greek philosophy may have been influenced by Buddhism.
:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby Fede » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:43 pm

..."Historicity"....?
The word alone offends me!

Yes, I'm aware it exists.
It still jars on the ear....
More grammatical and etymological short-cuts...
Well, I guess if Buddhism has evolved, so must a language.

But seriously? - what a dreadful word!
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby Kim OHara » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:34 pm

Fede wrote:..."Historicity"....?
The word alone offends me!

Yes, I'm aware it exists.
It still jars on the ear....
More grammatical and etymological short-cuts...
Well, I guess if Buddhism has evolved, so must a language.

But seriously? - what a dreadful word!

:console:
Kim

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby Hoo » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:33 pm

sainbhruvens wrote:Ok, so anyone can give reply me if Buddhism existed in China since 200BCE how could it have been invented by the Greeks?


There is speculation that the ancient Greek philosophies were communicated among learned peoples, just as were religious belief systems, etc. The flow wasn't one way, either, and the influence may have been East to West, as well as West to East. For an interesting read, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaximander gives the barest of outlines of one scenario. The exploits of the Persians, Hittites and Babylonians takes one further back, too.

JMHO, but the claim that any one was invented by the other ignores how information travelled, even when transportation was much more difficult. In ancient history of the mid and near East, textbook authors used to claim that every culture knew quite a bit about every other. There was always trade and conflict to encourage travel.

Just sharing a little bit that I've been exposed to.

With Metta,

Hoo

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Re: Historicity of the Buddha

Postby Bankei » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:56 am

sainbhruvens wrote:Ok, so anyone can give reply me if Buddhism existed in China since 200BCE how could it have been invented by the Greeks?


The Greeks were in India as early as around 400BC. I am not so sure if Buddhism reached China that early too. Do you have a reference?

Bankei
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