A proof of the inviolability of karma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Hoo
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby Hoo » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:34 pm


Mawkish1983
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:57 pm

Don't forget the forth kind of kamma: "neither black nor white kamma", as I understand it, that's the way to freedom

Anicca
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby Anicca » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:13 pm


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alexryan
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby alexryan » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:46 pm

Annica,

Thank you for your thoughts.
Perhaps what I like best about the Buddha was that he challenged us to not take anything that he said as scripture.
He challenged us to think for ourselves.

We should remember that Buddha was not a god.
He was just a dude.
A very smart dude, but just a dude nonetheless.

He was not all-knowing and all-seeing.
He was a flawed human being just like the rest of us.
Is it possible that he himself did not truly understand karma?

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
~Buddha

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bodom
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby bodom » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:50 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Anicca
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby Anicca » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:52 pm


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alexryan
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby alexryan » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:13 pm

Last edited by alexryan on Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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alexryan
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby alexryan » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:23 pm


Anicca
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby Anicca » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:54 pm


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bodom
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby bodom » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:56 pm

Why are you under the impression "the Buddha thought that karma was too complex to be fully understood". I have never heard this before. Where did you get this idea?

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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mikenz66
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:07 pm


Hoo
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby Hoo » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:27 pm

Last edited by Hoo on Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bodom
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby bodom » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:54 pm

Thanks Mike. Do you believe Neuro-science answers this question as our friend alex here maintains? Also do the four unconjecturables pertain to the Buddha himself or only to unenlightened individuals?

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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alexryan
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby alexryan » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:10 pm


Hoo
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby Hoo » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:26 pm


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alexryan
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby alexryan » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:10 am

Hoo,

Thank you again for the suggestions.
I do not believe that soft sciences like pyschology will help me to accomplish my goal.
Neuro-science is hard science.
Evidence from soft sciences is open to endless philosophical discussion/debate.
I am not seeking this.
I am seeking to irrevocably *prove* beyond a shadow of a doubt that karma is inviolable.
The evidence that can be gleaned from a hard science like neuro-science is cold, hard and indisputable.
I believe that I need to strengthen the proof by illustrating in more detail exactly how karma is enforced at the neuro-logical process level.

With Metta,
Alex

Hoo
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby Hoo » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:01 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:36 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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alexryan
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby alexryan » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:26 am

Retro,
Thank you for the lengthy quote.
I'm not exactly sure what point you were making.
Would it be possible to clarify?

My objective is limited to that of proving the inviolability of karma.
Please note that neuro-science has made huge advances since 1962.

I believe that a hard-science like neuro-science produces results that are more irrefutable because the premises of the logical argument can be reduced to the level of irrefutable empirical evidence. So, while there is always uncertainty, the uncertainty is reduced to the level of "Can I believe the information gathered via my 5 senses?".

To the best of my knowledge here are the facts that I know of from neuro-science as it pertains to proving the inviolability of karma via the logic of my proof:

1) All animals are driven to pursue pleasure and avoid pain.
The ancient amygdala hub the neurological component that determines what is pleasure and what is pain.

2) All decisions are made twice.
There is the initial impulsive fear-driven decision which is made in the amygdala hubm
Then there is the reasoned decision which is made in the anterior cingulate cortex hub.
The later is the seat of "self-regulation" it enables us to over-ride the primal decisions that we make.

3) The circuitry for empathy is attached to the anterior cingulate cortex hub and is integral to our ability to self-regulate our destructive emotions.
This is because empathy evolved as a means for us to accurately ascertain the intentions of others.
The ability enabled superior self-regulation capabilities which enabled us to accurately make decisions about when we should be fearful and when we should take risks to seize opportunities.

4) What we call "happiness" is a state of calm in the amygdala.
Maintaining this state of calm *requires* us to keep our empathy on at all times because that's how our brain evolved.

Whenever we connect with someone and hurt them we feel their pain as if it were our own.
If we choose to maintain a state of disharmony with our conscience by refusing to atone for hurting them, the only way to do this is to battle with our own thoughts to switch off our empathy for them.

But we are destroying our own ability to be happy in the long term by doing so.
The more people we hurt the more we hurt them the greater the internal tension that we create and the more intense the internal war becomes.

The desire to return to a state of harmony with our conscience is primal and unrelenting because we need to have this in order to have enduring happiness.
This is the force that drives us to unconsciously enforce karma.

If there is any aspect of this argument that is unconvincing, please attack that aspect directly.
As a firm believer in the scientific method and someone who highly values truth I am very open to being proven wrong.
But I am also fairly certain that I am right. :)
And I also believe that the consequences of this could be quite extra-ordinary. :) :)

With Metta,
Alex

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retrofuturist
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Re: A proof of the inviolability of karma

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:33 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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