advantages of Vism. jhanas

[convivium]

why would one aim at the attainment of "non-dual" jhanas in the commentaries and sub commentaries like Vm?

[tiltbillings]

why would one aim at the attainment of "non-dual" jhanas in the commentaries and sub commentaries like Vm?

Non-dual?

[convivium]

non-dual in the sense that you lose awareness and capacity for discernment.

[tiltbillings]

non-dual in the sense that you lose awareness and capacity for discernment.

Not quite how I'd undetstand "non-dual," but I see what you are saying.

[jcsuperstar]

because there is in that state a suppression of hindrances, and a rest from the troubles caused by them, also strong concentration helps with mindfulness which in turn can lead to insight

[fig tree]

non-dual in the sense that you lose awareness and capacity for discernment.

Back up a little here. Focus, concentrated awareness, is not the same as loss of awareness, even if it's strong enough that one stops being aware of various things other than what one is focusing on. "Discernment" is not necessarily used to mean anything that requires the focus of your attention to move around, or for you to make mental comments about what you're experiencing. "Non-dual" usually seems to mean something else too. If you want to talk about specifics of what the Visuddhimagga says about jhānas, it might be good to get a copy to refer to.

Some people say they find highly focused states good for providing a clear, stable state of mind with which to do insight meditation afterward. Some people just have a lot of confidence that Buddhagosa and other commentators knew what they were talking about.

Fig Tree

[Brizzy]

why would one aim at the attainment of "non-dual" jhanas in the commentaries and sub commentaries like Vm?

I don't know

[convivium]

Focus, concentrated awareness, is not the same as loss of awareness, even if it's strong enough that one stops being aware of various things other than what one is focusing on.

you lose awareness of the body...

"Discernment" is not necessarily used to mean anything that requires the focus of your attention to move around, or for you to make mental comments about what you're experiencing.

how can one discern something when one is completely absorbed in an object?

"Non-dual" usually seems to mean something else too.

?

If you want to talk about specifics of what the Visuddhimagga says about jhānas, it might be good to get a copy to refer to.

i have a copy so can reference anything you mention

Some people say they find highly focused states good for providing a clear, stable state of mind with which to do insight meditation afterward.

why not just the jhanas in the suttas then?

Some people just have a lot of confidence that Buddhagosa and other commentators knew what they were talking about.

why?

[jcsuperstar]

If you want to talk about specifics of what the Visuddhimagga says about jhānas, it might be good to get a copy to refer to.

i have a copy so can reference anything you mention

Some people say they find highly focused states good for providing a clear, stable state of mind with which to do insight meditation afterward.

why not just the jhanas in the suttas then?

Some people just have a lot of confidence that Buddhagosa and other commentators knew what they were talking about.

why?

to both, why not?

[Kenshou]

Even though discernment may not be possible while in such a strong jhana, the skills and qualities gained in it's practice are still certainly beneficial. You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption.

It's just another way to do things.

[Brizzy]

Even though discernment may not be possible while in such a strong jhana, the skills and qualities gained in it's practice are still certainly beneficial. You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption.

It's just another way to do things.

As a Sutta jhana man myself, I can actually agree with you that the Vism. jhana may well be an alternative way of doing things. I would not say, "You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption". Why are you forced to do so. My own belief is that the Vism. jhana is the sort of jhana as practiced by "outsiders", where the attaining of wisdom is not "built into" the jhana. It may also be possible that these "concentrations" were taught by the Buddha where he felt it appropriate. I believe the jhana as usually taught by the Buddha and portrayed in the suttas incorporates the mindfulness and body awareness, required for knowledge to arise.

[Alex123]

because there is in that state a suppression of hindrances, and a rest from the troubles caused by them, also strong concentration helps with mindfulness which in turn can lead to insight

All things are anicca, dukkha, anatta. Thus does one really need to enter special consciousness states to see anicca, dukkha and anatta there? These characteristics are present in all states, kusala or akusala.

Anatta and Dukkha can be seen really well in a restless state, perhaps much better than in peaceful and blissing out state.

[convivium]

insight takes some samadhi and samadhi takes some insight. insight is nana or nibbana and those require a lot of samadhi. however we have to work with whatever concentration we already have.