Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

[Alex123]

What is the difference between:

To know through wisdom (paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)
Vs
To know through touching and abiding with the body, and know through wisdom (kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)?


Does the first imply indirect knowing with wisdom of something, without actually experiencing it "with the body"?

With metta,


Alex

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Alex,

What's the context this appears in?

Without knowing the context, it's quite possible this is referring to the "body witness" variety of sekha.

Metta,
Retro.

[Alex123]

Greetings Alex,

What's the context this appears in?

Without knowing the context, it's quite possible this is referring to the "body witness" variety of sekha.

Metta,
Retro.

Two types of Arahants

Pannavimutti Arahants are said to know Jhana 1-9 through wisdom:
"There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Both Liberated Arhats are said about Jhanas to:
"There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways, though with a sequel.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[mikenz66]

Hi Alex,

I thought it was the distinction between having mastery of the formless attainments (plus wisdom) and having "just" the wisdom (without the mastery of the formless attainments).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"And what is the individual [released] both ways? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual [released] both ways.[4] Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless.

"And what is the individual released through discernment? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is released through discernment. Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless.

Mike

[Alex123]

The problem is that Arhat liberated through wisdom is said even about 1st Jhana to
"and he knows it through wisdom (paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti), not just Aruppas, but from 1st Jhana and higher.

On the other hand Both-Liberated is said even about 1st Jhana to "he remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment." (kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)

[mikenz66]

Hi Alex,

I think that's why Bhikkhu Bodhi here: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
seems to be suggesting that Jhana is probably necessary for the non-returner level, and almost certainly the Arahant level. Perhaps there are some useful clues in that article - I have not studied it in detail.

Mike

[Nyana]

SN 12.70 (S ii 121) Susima Sutta tells of arahant-s who were liberated through discernment but hadn't realized any of the other five higher gnoses (abhiñña-s) or the formless attainments.

MN 70 (M i 477) Kīṭāgiri Sutta and AN 9.44 (A iv 452) Paññāvimutta Sutta tell us that to be liberated through discernment one does so via at least the first jhāna. Thus the arahant-s in SN 12.70 were able to attain at least the first jhāna (in the suttantika sense of jhāna).

Liberated both ways (ubhatobhāgavimutta) is usually understood to have both the jhāna-s and formless attainments, as well as the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodha). There is an abhidhamma distinction between those liberated both ways who don't attain cessation of apperception and feeling and those who do. I can't remember if this is specifically addressed in the sutta-s.

[Alex123]

Hi Alex,

I think that's why Bhikkhu Bodhi here: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
seems to be suggesting that Jhana is probably necessary for the non-returner level, and almost certainly the Arahant level. Perhaps there are some useful clues in that article - I have not studied it in detail.

Mike

Well, the maggaphala moment itself is a sort of lokuttara Jhana moment - so it is not 100% clear if mundane jhana is required, or any jhana that is separate from this path moment.

[Nyana]

Well, the maggaphala moment itself is a sort of lokuttara Jhana moment - so it is not 100% clear if mundane jhana is required, or any jhana that is separate from this path moment.

According to the discourses it is quite clear. The difficulty arises when one reads abhidhammika terms and categories into the discourses. Ven. Brahmāli Jhāna and Lokuttarajjhāna:

• Samādhi and jhāna are terms used in the Suttanta-bhājaniya and thus they refer to Sutta usage. In particular, as they are closely related to the above mentioned sets that constitute the path to Enlightenment, they are factors of that same path. Lokuttarajjhāna, on the other hand, belongs to the Abhidhamma-bhājaniya and is a term for the constellation of mental factors present at the moments of Enlightenment. Being a term peculiar to the Abhidhamma-bhājaniya, it only relates to the Abhidhamma and can therefore not be used to explain samādhi or jhāna as it appears in the Suttas. If this is correct, it follows that the Commentaries make a dangerous blunder when they explain jhāna and samādhi with Abhidhamma terminology that was never capable of being used in this way.

Ven. Ṭhānissaro, Wings to Awakening:

• [W]hat jhāna means in the commentaries is something quite different from what it means in the Canon. Because of this difference we can say that the commentaries are right in viewing their type of jhāna as unnecessary for Awakening, but Awakening cannot occur without the attainment of jhāna in the canonical sense.

[Alex123]

Well, the maggaphala moment itself is a sort of lokuttara Jhana moment - so it is not 100% clear if mundane jhana is required, or any jhana that is separate from this path moment.

According to the discourses it is quite clear. .[/list]

What is your opinion on Patisambhidamagga of Sutta-Pitaka?

It clearly states that 37 factors of awakening (note: factors OF awakening, not factors FOR awakening) happen during transcendental path/fruition moment.

Often Suttas imply this when they mention path with Jhana. A monk after long preparations sits down, enters Jhana (usually to 4th level) and realizes triple knowledge immedetely afterwards. So all the suttas could be read in the light of Jhana happening during maggaphala moment.

With Best wishes,

Alex

[Nyana]

What is your opinion on Patisambhidamagga of Sutta-Pitaka?

It clearly states that 37 factors of awakening (note: factors OF awakening, not factors FOR awakening) happen during transcendental path/fruition moment.

Hi Alex,

The Paṭisambhidāmagga is an abhidhammika presentation, even if it is now included in the Khuddakanikāya. It employs the thought-world and terminology of the abhidhamma. (For example, the author of the Vimuttimagga often refers to quotations from it as being from the abhidhamma.)

Often Suttas imply this when they mention path with Jhana. A monk after long preparations sits down, enters Jhana (usually to 4th level) and realizes triple knowledge immedetely afterwards. So all the suttas could be read in the light of Jhana happening during maggaphala moment.

The "long preparations" necessary in order to attain the fourth jhāna and realize triple knowledge require the previous development of jhāna. This is implied in the discourses which describe the path –- being integral components of the gradual training.

The possibility of rare cases where one realizes the triple knowledge without much prior meditation practice is more of a theoretical hypothesis than something which accords with the life-experience of any long term practitioner that I know. I'm not saying that it would be impossible, but that it would be a very rare occurrence.

Even if one employs abhidhammika terminology, the concomitant arising of all the mental factors associated with lokuttarajjhāna (as listed in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi for example), would require a great deal of proficiency in the development of sīla, samādhi (jhāna in the suttantika sense), and paññā.

All the best,

Geoff

[Alex123]

Hello Geoff,


I guess we will disagree on Ptsm.

As for the suttas, there is an interesting chart in DN 34 book of 9s

Nava yonisomanasikāramūlakā dhammā, yonisomanasikaroto pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati, samāhite citte yathābhūtaṃ jānāti passati, yathābhūtaṃ jānaṃ passaṃ nibbindati, nibbindaṃ virajjati, virāgā vimuccati. Ime nava dhammā bahukārā. PTS D3.288

Nine ideas rooted in careful attention.With wise attention gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when he is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his mind becomes concentrated; with his
concentrated mind he knows and sees things as they've become

Note: The samadhi part is well after yoniso-manasikaro an is rooted in it. IMHO well developed yonisomanasikaro is not really a mundane cause, non-Buddhists do not reflect in anatta (for example) way. Thus the samadhi that is actually responsible for knowing and seeing as it has become (yathābhūtaṃ jānāti passati,) is not a worldly one.

And as long as a person has wrong views, IMHO, all and any "samadhi" is miccha-samadhi which can do only one thing - move one further from right understanding. IMHO.

"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

"This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,

Alex

[Nyana]

As for the suttas, there is an interesting chart in DN 34 book of 9s

A discourse mentioning some of the significant aspects of the path of gradual training in a sequential list doesn’t entail the consequence that any of the aspects of this list are meant to be interpreted as aspects developed or arising in any sort of rapid, momentary sequence.

Applying the theory of radical momentariness to the actual path of gradual training impoverishes the path and marginalizes the samādhi component of integral praxis. One ends up with a dry, reductionist path largely devoid of the development of positive affective qualities so often mentioned in the sutta-s; qualities such as delight (pāmojja), joy (pīti), rapture (pīti in the context of jhāna), pleasure (sukha), etc.. Ven. Sujata:

• “Samādhi becomes, not an exalted, stable coalescence of mind, but a ‘momentary samādhi’ running after the fluctuations of phenomena. The path becomes, not a gradual program of spiritual development, but a ‘path-moment’, gone in a flash.” – The Mystique of the Abhidhamma

Samādhi is reduced to attending to what Ven. K. Ñāṇananda has referred to as:

• “...heaps of perceptual data, which we are told today are essential requisites for admission into the ‘city’ of Nibbāna.” – The Mind Stilled, Nibbāna Sermon 15

Elsewhere Ven. Ñāṇananda has referred to this tendency as the:

• “...relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness....” – Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought, p. 32.

IMHO well developed yonisomanasikaro is not really a mundane cause, non-Buddhists do not reflect in anatta (for example) way. Thus the samadhi that is actually responsible for knowing and seeing as it has become (yathābhūtaṃ jānāti passati,) is not a worldly one.

Yoniso manasikāra is a prerequisite even for attaining stream-entry. Moreover, the jhāna-s of sammāsamādhi are never “worldly” samādhi-s.

And as long as a person has wrong views, IMHO, all and any "samadhi" is miccha-samadhi which can do only one thing - move one further from right understanding. IMHO.

Of course.

All the best,

Geoff

[Alex123]

Hello Geoff, all,

A discourse mentioning some of the significant aspects of the path of gradual training in a sequential list doesn’t entail the consequence that any of the aspects of this list are meant to be interpreted as aspects developed or arising in any sort of rapid, momentary sequence.

In the Bahiya Sutta, Ven. Bahiya went from ordinary good wordling on a wrong path, to an Arahant within a single discourse. He completed 4 maggaphalas and 37 factors of awakening within seconds. This example and others show us that the path can be momentary.

Devata: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship."

[later the Buddha taught Bahiya the famous teaching]
Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bahiya of the Bark-cloth with this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rowyourboat]

The path can be momentary for Bahiya. He has special mention as the quickest of the lot. We should not use an atypical example and think it applies to us. Many suttas just talk of people going away after speaking to the Buddha and sitting upright in the forest and achieving what can be achieved by with strong effort. Bill Gates should not be considered that end result of someone embarking on a career in IT.

I agree with the importance of samadhi as mentioned by the above posters. While each path factor may well lead on from the first to the last, they can be developed individually as well. Those meditation technicians of the mind know the specific development of samadhi is invaluable. Also the effect of samadhi is not adequately captured intellectually- hence poorly expressed in books. I would almost go as far to say that 40-50% of the battle is to develop a pure strong samadhi.

This is not to say the those doing 'vipassana' will not eventually get into jhana. They do. I have yet to meet a dry vipassana master who didn't go into jhana while doing 'dry' vipassana. The path works just like the Buddha intended it (right mindfulness leads to right concentration).

with metta