Can an Arahant cry?

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Can an Arahant cry?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:23 pm

Hello all,

In CMA there is "hasituppāda-citta" , the citta responsible for smiling. Where is the citta responsible for crying? If an Arahant can smile, why can't an Arahant cry? One may correctly say that an arahant doesn't experience aversion, but an Arahant doesn't experience lobha or dosa that can cause one to smile either.

Smiling, depending on exact type and timing, can both be expression of lobha or dosa (ex: smiling in contempt. Just look at him! He is in hell where he belongs!)



With metta,

Alex
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:09 pm

This very thing created controversy concerning the alleged arhantship of Ajahn Maha Boowa. When he was describing his enlightenment in a public speech, he shed tears, leading many to debate his arhantship. Their argument: an arhant wouldn't cry. Ajahn Boowah stated it was the skhndhas which wept.

You may find these talks by Ven.Ajahan Boowah of interest:

"Shedding tears in Amazement with Dhamma" [html] http://www.luangta.com/English/site/tal ... 2-5-45.pdf [/html]

"How can an Arhant shed tears?" [html] http://www.luangta.com/English/site/tal ... 2-5-45.pdf [/html]

Hope this helps,

J
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:10 pm

Give him some strong chillies and see. :stirthepot:
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:55 pm

:rofl:



Btw, I cry a lot. Watching news does me in.
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby cooran » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:20 pm

Hello Alex,

Why would an Arahant cry? Arahants are said to experience only physical pain,(Arahaa eka.m vedana.m vediyati kaayika.m na cetasikan ti : Miln 253) without the anxious mental agony when experiencing physical pain.

26. Hasituppada is a citta peculiar to Arahats. Smiling is caused by a pleasurable feeling. There are thirteen classes of consciousness by which one may smile according to the type of the person. An ordinary worldling (puthujjana) may laugh with either one of the four types of cittas rooted in attachment, accompanied by pleasure, or one of the four kusala cittas, accompanied by pleasure.
Sotapannas, Sakadagamis, and Anagamis may smile with one of the two akusala cittas, disconnected with false view, accompanied by pleasure, or with one of the four kusala cittas.
Arahats and Pacceka Buddhas may smile with one of the four sobhana kiriya cittas or hasituppada.
Samma Sambuddhas smile with one of the two sobhana kiriya cittas, accompanied by wisdom and pleasure.
There is nothing but mere mirth in the hasituppada consciousness.
The Compendium of Philosophy states: "There are six classes of laughter recognized in Buddhist works: (1) sita: - a smile manifesting itself in expression and countenance; (2) hasita: - a smile consisting in the slight movements of the lips just enough to reveal the tips of the teeth; (3) vihasita: - laughter giving out a light sound; (4) upahasita: - laughter accompanied by the movement of the head, shoulders, and arms; (5) apahasita: - laughter accompanied by the shedding of tears; and (6) atihasita: - an outburst of laughter accompanied by the forward and backward movements of the entire body from head to foot. Laughter is thus a form of bodily expression (kaya-viatti), which may or may not be accompanied by vocal expression (vaci-viatti). Of these, the first two classes are indulged in by cultured persons, the next two by the average man, and the last two by the lower classes of being.
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ab ... bhis01.htm

From Bhante Sujato
From the texts as well as from modern examples, it is clear that there is a distinct notion of what this state of freedom is like. An arahant lives, eats, sleeps, laughs, and talks much like the rest of us. But they are untrammeled by illusion, by sadness, or anger. their life is said to be one of simplicity, contentment, mindfulness, and joy. And for the most part, they choose to do two things with their lives. Left to their own devices, they are simply happy and content. They live, and just that much. When the chance arises, they will work hard help others realize the same contentment. But they are not desperate or pushy: they respond to genuine needs, and otherwise remain silent.
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with metta
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:40 pm

Greetings,

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Give him some strong chillies and see. :stirthepot:

:goodpost:

Does the biological act of crying necessitate a certain citta as its foundation?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:16 am

Guidelines for the Abhidhamma forum
by retrofuturist » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:44 am
Greetings,

The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=374

Would it be too much to ask to remove off-topic posts and those clearly contravening the Forum Guidelines?

with metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:31 am

Greetings Chris,

I don't see anything in the guidelines that says the Abhidhamma forum (nor any other Theravada related sub-forum for that matter) must be devoid of good humour. We would rather these Mahavihara forums be about investigating "the vibrant and revered teachings of the Buddha, as followed by uncountable lay and ordained buddhists in the past and in the present" rather than "a type of Museum of Ancient History". I trust you feel this way too. I would rather people feel comfortable to respectfully speak, rather than be always half-afraid of stepping on eggshells or unsettling the dust.

No one here has taken the Pali literature as being anything other than authorative, and the line opened up by Bhikkhu Pesala, whilst humourous in its undertones does indeed have implications very relevant to the topic... namely, whether the biological act (and i use the term 'act' loosely) of crying need necessarily be rooted in unwholesome (or even wholesome) cittas.

Do not be concerned - in these Mahavihara sub-forums, disrespect for the Pali literature (e.g. Tipitaka or commentarial literature) will not be tolerated.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Does the biological act of crying necessitate a certain citta as its foundation?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Perhaps not. But in Abhidhamma-Sangaha there is a special citta for smiling, hasituppāda-citta.

I wonder why:

a) Special citta for smiling is required. Why can't smiling (and perhaps shedding tears) be under bodily-intimation (kāya-viññatti)
b) Can Arhats cry (but not from sadness, of course)? For example: Ven. Maha Boowa.
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:39 am

Greetings Alex,

Alex123 wrote:b) Can Arhats cry (but not from sadness, of course)? For example: Ven. Maha Boowa.

Well, if you accept he is an arahant, then the conclusion is of course "yes".

If you don't accept him as an arahant, he would have been like other humans who cry due to any number of reasons, including happiness, sadness, joy, relief, pain, futility etc.

As you see from my last sentence, there are many different potential mindstates which sit behind the act of crying. The challenge would be to identify which of those mindstates could also be experienced by an arahant... and I suspect you'd be more qualified to find an answer to that question than I.

Good luck.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:13 am

well why do people cry? we should start with that, is it a physical response that has no volitional cause? sorta like when you get hit in the knee by the doctor to test reflexes? can it never be that? can it be both? i know actors can make themselves cry but mostly not by willing themselves to cry but by recalling some past event.. so it would seem to crying depends on an outside cause and is just involuntary, maybe? and if so there wouldn't be a citta that arises would there?
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:28 am

Some people cry for joy. I know this is just an assumption but to me crying seems to be just a phisical response of either phisical or mental reasons or both. So when Ven. Maha Boowa remembered the "moment of final attainment" maybe the body just responded to the overwhelming moment which was present in the recollection. The body is still the body, although the "mind" might have been changed completely because of the attainment of arahantship, therefore the body may respond similarly to certain circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised.

Just some thoughts, best wishes acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
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Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:37 am

And what's up with tears appearing in the eyes when the suffering of others is observed?

I've often wondered about that.

Because that is sometimes that can happen to me. I once watched on TV how absolutely primitive men enjoyed torturing an animal, cutting it up alive, and laughed about it's pain and it's efforts to struggle itself free.

They shrieked with pleasure ...so sick.

I felt tears running down my cheeks.

I really wonder if this shows I am somewhat immature in my Buddhist understanding or development and if I must work on something in particualr, or should read something that can help me grow out of it, or if it is ok.

I was a bit relieved, when I read a Buddhist article where HHDL silently wept after a nun had described her situation to him, and he felt compassion with her.

I thought perhaps I am not so wrong after all. :shrug:

Of course I am not putting myself on the same level as the DL, don't misunderstand me!

with metta,

Anna


PS: jcsuperstars and accinteyos thoughts make sense to me.
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:07 am

Hello all,

Upatissa Sutta: About Upatissa (Sariputta) - SN 21.2

At Savatthi. There Ven. Sariputta addressed the monks: "Friends!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded.

Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'Is there anything in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'There is nothing in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair.'"

When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher would there arise within you no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair?"
"Even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, my friend, there would arise within me no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings.'"

"Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta,
Chris
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:35 pm

There were good responses.

Crying may not be due to sadness. Can one cry with compassion for others or appreciative joy for the Dhamma? All this with kiriya citta, of course.Neither kusala nor akusala.

Or does willful crying (not hot-peppers near the eyes) always involve negative mind states which Arahant cannot have by definition?
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby Zom » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:50 am

Did Buddha cry because of the greatest compassion for numerous beings? :reading:
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:51 am

Zom wrote:Did Buddha cry because of the greatest compassion towards numerous beings? :reading:

no idea
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby Zom » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:54 am

As ajahn Thanissaro notices, Arahant has gone even beyond such phenomenon as dispassion. And crying, I think, is always somehow connected with some passion. For example, with that passion-and-delight for Dhamma (that is mentioned in some suttas, and that arahants no longer have).
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:02 pm

How many Arahants can cry on the head of a pin ?
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Re: Can an Arahant cry?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:11 pm

PeterB wrote:How many Arahants can cry on the head of a pin ?

6?
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