advantages of Vism. jhanas

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.
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convivium
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advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby convivium » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:39 am

why would one aim at the attainment of "non-dual" jhanas in the commentaries and sub commentaries like Vm?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:40 am

convivium wrote:why would one aim at the attainment of "non-dual" jhanas in the commentaries and sub commentaries like Vm?
Non-dual?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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convivium
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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby convivium » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:44 am

non-dual in the sense that you lose awareness and capacity for discernment.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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tiltbillings
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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:55 am

convivium wrote:non-dual in the sense that you lose awareness and capacity for discernment.
Not quite how I'd undetstand "non-dual," but I see what you are saying.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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jcsuperstar
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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:00 am

because there is in that state a suppression of hindrances, and a rest from the troubles caused by them, also strong concentration helps with mindfulness which in turn can lead to insight
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby fig tree » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:31 am

convivium wrote:non-dual in the sense that you lose awareness and capacity for discernment.

Back up a little here. Focus, concentrated awareness, is not the same as loss of awareness, even if it's strong enough that one stops being aware of various things other than what one is focusing on. "Discernment" is not necessarily used to mean anything that requires the focus of your attention to move around, or for you to make mental comments about what you're experiencing. "Non-dual" usually seems to mean something else too. If you want to talk about specifics of what the Visuddhimagga says about jhānas, it might be good to get a copy to refer to.

Some people say they find highly focused states good for providing a clear, stable state of mind with which to do insight meditation afterward. Some people just have a lot of confidence that Buddhagosa and other commentators knew what they were talking about.

Fig Tree

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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby Brizzy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:38 am

convivium wrote:why would one aim at the attainment of "non-dual" jhanas in the commentaries and sub commentaries like Vm?


I don't know :shrug:

:smile:

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convivium
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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby convivium » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:58 pm

Focus, concentrated awareness, is not the same as loss of awareness, even if it's strong enough that one stops being aware of various things other than what one is focusing on.
you lose awareness of the body...
"Discernment" is not necessarily used to mean anything that requires the focus of your attention to move around, or for you to make mental comments about what you're experiencing.
how can one discern something when one is completely absorbed in an object?

"Non-dual" usually seems to mean something else too.

?

If you want to talk about specifics of what the Visuddhimagga says about jhānas, it might be good to get a copy to refer to.
i have a copy so can reference anything you mention
Some people say they find highly focused states good for providing a clear, stable state of mind with which to do insight meditation afterward.

why not just the jhanas in the suttas then?

Some people just have a lot of confidence that Buddhagosa and other commentators knew what they were talking about.
why?
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:32 am

convivium wrote:
If you want to talk about specifics of what the Visuddhimagga says about jhānas, it might be good to get a copy to refer to.
i have a copy so can reference anything you mention
Some people say they find highly focused states good for providing a clear, stable state of mind with which to do insight meditation afterward.

why not just the jhanas in the suttas then?

Some people just have a lot of confidence that Buddhagosa and other commentators knew what they were talking about.
why?


to both, why not?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby Kenshou » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:43 am

Even though discernment may not be possible while in such a strong jhana, the skills and qualities gained in it's practice are still certainly beneficial. You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption.

It's just another way to do things.

Brizzy

Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby Brizzy » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:25 am

Kenshou wrote:Even though discernment may not be possible while in such a strong jhana, the skills and qualities gained in it's practice are still certainly beneficial. You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption.

It's just another way to do things.


As a Sutta jhana man myself, I can actually agree with you that the Vism. jhana may well be an alternative way of doing things. I would not say, "You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption". Why are you forced to do so. My own belief is that the Vism. jhana is the sort of jhana as practiced by "outsiders", where the attaining of wisdom is not "built into" the jhana. It may also be possible that these "concentrations" were taught by the Buddha where he felt it appropriate. I believe the jhana as usually taught by the Buddha and portrayed in the suttas incorporates the mindfulness and body awareness, required for knowledge to arise.

:smile:

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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:00 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:because there is in that state a suppression of hindrances, and a rest from the troubles caused by them, also strong concentration helps with mindfulness which in turn can lead to insight


All things are anicca, dukkha, anatta. Thus does one really need to enter special consciousness states to see anicca, dukkha and anatta there? These characteristics are present in all states, kusala or akusala.

Anatta and Dukkha can be seen really well in a restless state, perhaps much better than in peaceful and blissing out state.
"dust to dust...."

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Re: advantages of Vism. jhanas

Postby convivium » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:11 pm

insight takes some samadhi and samadhi takes some insight. insight is nana or nibbana and those require a lot of samadhi. however we have to work with whatever concentration we already have.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php


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