Saddha

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Saddha

Postby Brizzy » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:22 am

A lot of pali words are left untranslated. One of the pali words that I personally wish was left untranslated is Saddha. It is invariably translated as faith, occasionally as confidence neither of which truly cover the joyous aspect. Saddha is the start of the path and this in itself is joyous. I find that when reading a sutta if I replace the word faith with "joyous confidence or joyous understanding" the sutta has more life.

:smile:
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Re: Saddha

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:29 am

"By faith you shall be free and go beyond the realm of death." -- Suttanipata 1146.

Like a fine horse coming under a whip, be zealous and inspired and eliminate trhis great suffering through faith, moral virtue, energy, concentration, discernment of righeousness, through being endowed with knowledge and conduct and mindfulness. Dhp 144

The good luck of virtue never fades,
faith also brings great good.
Wisdom is man's most precious gem,
merit no thief can ever steal.
S. I, 37

Endowed with faith and virtue,
speaking gently, free from selfishness:
such a woman purifies the pathway
leading to a future happiness.
A. IV, 6

The monk well-possessed of virtue,
the nun who is widely learned,
male and female lay disciples
who are fully endowed with faith --
it is they who illuminate the Sangha,
"lights of the Sangha" they are called.
A. II, 8

The flood is crossed by faith,
by vigilance the sea is crossed,
pain is overcome with vigor
by wisdom one is purified
. Sn. 184




"In this case, Ananda, the noble disciple possesses unwavering faith in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is an Arahat, the Fully Enlightened One, perfect in knowledge and conduct, the Happy One, the knower of the world, the paramount trainer of beings, the teacher of gods and men, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'
"He possesses unwavering faith in the Dhamma thus: 'Well propounded by the Blessed One is the Dhamma, evident, timeless, inviting investigation, leading to emancipation, to be comprehended by the wise, each for himself.'
"He possesses unwavering faith in the Blessed One's Order of Disciples thus: 'Well faring is the Blessed One's Order of Disciples, righteously, wisely, and dutifully: that is to say, the four pairs of men, the eight classes of persons. The Blessed One's Order of Disciples is worthy of honor, of hospitality, of offerings, of veneration -- the supreme field for meritorious deeds in the world.'
Mahaparinibbanasutta


This is foremost for those with faith,
For those who know the foremost Dhamma:
Having faith in the Buddha as foremost,
Worthy of offerings, unsurpassed;
Having faith in the Dhamma as foremost,
The peace of detachment, bliss;
Having faith in the Sangha as foremost,
A field of merit unsurpassed.

Iti 90
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Saddha

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:27 pm

I was shocked to see I didn't have saddhā in the Pali word a day thread, so put it there today. :tongue:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3963&p=69775#p69775
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Re: Saddha

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:31 pm

Brizzy wrote:A lot of pali words are left untranslated. One of the pali words that I personally wish was left untranslated is Saddha. It is invariably translated as faith, occasionally as confidence neither of which truly cover the joyous aspect. Saddha is the start of the path and this in itself is joyous. I find that when reading a sutta if I replace the word faith with "joyous confidence or joyous understanding" the sutta has more life.


I know what you mean. We don't want 'faith' to be confused with the Judeo-Christian version of faith, sometimes referred to as blind faith. In the Dhamma there is always some confidence behind it. There is faith, because we are not born enlightened, but there is at least some intellectual understanding, acceptance based on some experience, and some understanding.
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Re: Saddha

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:38 am

Hi David,
David N. Snyder wrote:I know what you mean. We don't want 'faith' to be confused with the Judeo-Christian version of faith, sometimes referred to as blind faith. In the Dhamma there is always some confidence behind it. There is faith, because we are not born enlightened, but there is at least some intellectual understanding, acceptance based on some experience, and some understanding.

I don't disagree that what we do must be with understanding, but does that actually mean that those wisdom qualities should be inserted into the actual definition of saddhā? My knowledge of Pali is not up to answering that question, but the way I would describe it is that saddhā has to be balanced by paññā (wisdom) (just as the other pair of faculties, energy and concentration, need to be in balance: See, for example http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/dic3_i.htm#indriya-samatta).

As my new teacher (like other conditioned phenomena, teachers are anicca) remarked over the weekend, faith can be a powerful motivator that makes long-term or intensive practise possible. I think this is where Brizzy's "joyous" take is a good one. One believes that Ajahn X knows what he's talking about and so one is willing to follow his instructions, and put up with hours of walking, sitting, standing, etc... But of course if one doesn't use some wisdom to work out what is and isn't working, one might still be wasting one's time...

Mike
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Re: Saddha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:48 am

Greetings,

I don't mind a straight translation as faith, because as identified above, the Buddhist tradition is very clear that saddha is to be complemented by panna. There's no need to let Christian values impinge upon the Dhamma.

(Excuse the use of diacritics, but I'm sure you know what I mean)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Saddha

Postby Brizzy » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:17 am

I think the joy that can be experienced, aka faith/confidence, can/does arise by understanding a certain teaching or part of a teaching. It is through knowing in your "heart" or whatever you wish to call it, that a certain teaching is "ABSOLUTELY TRUE". This, I think is the joyous aspect. Before that, Saddha might be termed as "trust".

:smile:
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Re: Saddha

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:29 am

Brizzy wrote: It is through knowing in your "heart" or whatever you wish to call it, that a certain teaching is "ABSOLUTELY TRUE".
Which becomes one more thing of which to let go.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Saddha

Postby Brizzy » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote: It is through knowing in your "heart" or whatever you wish to call it, that a certain teaching is "ABSOLUTELY TRUE".
Which becomes one more thing of which to let go.


But without which no progress can be made. The whole path is conditioned. Even the Buddha took refuge in the Dhamma.

:smile:
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Re: Saddha

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:57 am

Brizzy wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote: It is through knowing in your "heart" or whatever you wish to call it, that a certain teaching is "ABSOLUTELY TRUE".
Which becomes one more thing of which to let go.


But without which no progress can be made. The whole path is conditioned. Even the Buddha took refuge in the Dhamma.
It is an odd thing, "taking" refuge. A bad English translation.

While one may "know" in one's heart that a teaching is absolutely true, one should also know that there is no thing to hold on to in that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Saddha

Postby Brizzy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: It is through knowing in your "heart" or whatever you wish to call it, that a certain teaching is "ABSOLUTELY TRUE".Which becomes one more thing of which to let go.


But without which no progress can be made. The whole path is conditioned. Even the Buddha took refuge in the Dhamma.
It is an odd thing, "taking" refuge. A bad English translation.

While one may "know" in one's heart that a teaching is absolutely true, one should also know that there is no thing to hold on to in that.


It is a conditioned path. It is easy to say "let go" all the time, but not very practical. First one has to put in place the factors that will enable this letting go.

Saddha takes one along this path, I won't be letting go of it any time soon.

:smile:
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Re: Saddha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:02 am

Brizzy wrote:Saddha takes one along this path, I won't be letting go of it any time soon.
I would not expect one to.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Saddha

Postby vitellius » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:33 am

retrofuturist wrote:I don't mind a straight translation as faith, because as identified above, the Buddhist tradition is very clear that saddha is to be complemented by panna. There's no need to let Christian values impinge upon the Dhamma.


Hello,

And we should also beware of another extreme - when "anti-Christian" views influence understanding of Dhamma.
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