according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:05 pm

beeblebrox wrote:You should take it easy, Zac. :tongue:


He would have taken it easy if people had been a little more easy on him...! :P

He is only the echo of what he received.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Annapurna
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:55 pm

"What happens after you die?"

Great question, especially when we think of other schools, and "Bardo"...

I recall that back in e sangha, I once read that it will take maximum 40 days to be reborn, and I was shocked.

I thought that was way too fast.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Annapurna
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby cooran » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:36 pm

The question in the title of this thread is:

"according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?"

As this is the Classical Theravada Forum, can we keep discussion within those parameters? Let's not let yet another thread degenerate and then have to transfer it to another sub-forum.

Zac - the english words in the translations depend upon the knowledge and decisions of the translator. They are not the actual word used by the Buddha, and you can have different english words used in different translations. It is pointless saying "See! the Buddha said reborn" - correct understanding depends upon the skill of the translator, and the knowledge of the person reading it. Confusion can occur by just taking a word and giving it a modern-day meaning.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7052
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:40 pm

In my opinion, the various Suttas about rebirth, kamma, anatta, dependent origination, etc provide a kind of balance between annihilationistic and eternalistic view. So, in addition to the Suttas quoted above, we have:

Mahātanhāsankhaya Sutta (MN#38) - The Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... _Sutta.htm
5] Then the Blessed One addressed a certain bhikkhu thus: “Come, bhikkhu, tell the bhikkhu Sāti, son of a fisherman, in my name that the Teacher calls him.” - “Yes, venerable sir,” he replied, and he went to the bhikkhu Sāti and told him: “The Teacher calls you, friend Sāti.”

“Yes, friend,” he replied, and he went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, sat down at one side. The Blessed One then asked him: “Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another'?”

“Exactly so, venerable sir. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is the same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.”

“What is that consciousness, Sāti?”

“Venerable sir, it is that which speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions.”

“Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.”

Which destroys the idea that there is a lasting self or consciousness that survives death.

And also:
MN 109 Maha-punnama Sutta: The Great Full-moon Night Discourse
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Now at that moment this line of thinking appeared in the awareness of a certain monk: "So — form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?"

Then the Blessed One, realizing with his awareness the line of thinking in that monk's awareness, addressed the monks: "It's possible that a senseless person — immersed in ignorance, overcome with craving — might think that he could outsmart the Teacher's message in this way: 'So — form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self. Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?' Now, monks, haven't I trained you in counter-questioning with regard to this & that topic here & there? What do you think — Is form constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

It's not easy to reconcile the various teachings on about rebirth, kamma, anatta, dependent origination. If it were, we would all be awakened already... :buddha1:

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 9612
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:52 pm

cooran wrote:The question in the title of this thread is:

"according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?"

As this is the Classical Theravada Forum, can we keep discussion within those parameters?


Perhaps some Abhidhamma would be in order then...
See, for example, page 122-124, and page 194-199 of CMA. Readable online here:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... &q&f=false

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 9612
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:03 am

Greetings,

Some relevant words from Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda...

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/wh ... iev/41.htm

... specifically in relation to the Buddha after death, but very relevant even to one who is not an arahant! Just replace the references to "a Tathagata" in the bolded section to "you".

Does the Buddha Exist After His Death?

The question: 'Does the Buddha exist after His death or not', is not a new question. The same question was put to the Buddha during His lifetime.

When a group of ascetics came and asked the same question from certain disciples of the Buddha, they could not get a satisfactory answer from them. Anuradha, a disciple, approached the Buddha and reported to Him about their conversation. Considering the understanding capacity of the questioners, the Buddha usually observed silence at such questions. However in this instance, the Buddha explained to Anuradha in the following manner:

'O Anuradha, what do you think, is the form (Rupa) permanent or impermanent?'

'Impermanent, Sir.'

'Is that which is impermanent, painful or pleasant?'

'Painful, Sir.'

'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as: 'This is mine; this is I, this is my soul or permanent substance?'

'It is not proper, Sir.'

'Is feeling permanent or impermanent?'

'Impermanent, Sir.'

'Is that which is impermanent, painful or pleasant?'

'Painful, Sir.'

'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as 'This is mine, this is I, this is my soul'?'

'It is not proper, Sir.'

'Are perfection, formative tendencies and consciousness, permanent or impermanent?'

'Impermanent, Sir.'

'Is that which is impermanent, painful or pleasant?'

'Painful, Sir.'

'Is it proper to regard that which is impermanent, painful and subject to change as: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my soul?'?'

'It is not proper, Sir.'

'Therefore whatever form, feeling, perception, formative tendencies, consciousness which have been, will be and is now connected with oneself, or with others, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near; all forms, feelings, perceptions, formative tendencies and consciousness should be considered by right knowledge in this way: 'This is not mine; this not I; this is not my soul.' Having seen thus, a noble, learned disciple becomes disenchanted with the form, feeling, perception, formative tendencies and consciousness. Becoming disenchanted, he controls his passion and subsequently discards them.'

'Being free from passion he becomes emancipated and insight arises in him: 'I am emancipated.' He realizes: 'Birth is destroyed, I have lived the holy life and done what had to be done. There is no more birth for me.'

'What do you think, Anuradha, do you regard the form as a Tathagata?'

'No, Sir.'

'O Anuradha, what is your view, do you see a Tathagata in the form?'

'No, Sir.'

'Do you see a Tathagata apart from form?'

'No, Sir.'

'Do you see a Tathagata in feeling, perception, formative tendencies, consciousness?'

'No, Sir.'

'O Anuradha, what do you think, do you regard that which is without form, feeling, perception, formative tendencies and consciousness as a Tathagata?'

'No, Sir.'

'Now, Anuradha, since a Tathagata is not to be found in this very life, is it proper for you to say: 'This noble and supreme one has pointed out and explained these four propositions:

A Tathagata exists after death;
A Tathagata does not exist after death;
A Tathagata exists and yet does not exist after death;
A Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death?'

'No, Sir.'

'Well and good, Anuradha.
Formerly and now also I expound and point out only the truth of Suffering and cessation of Suffering.' (Anuradha Sutta - Samyutta Nikaya.)

The above dialogue between the Buddha and Anuradha may not be satisfactory to many, since it does not satisfy the inquiring mind of the people. Truth is such that it does not give satisfaction to the emotion and intellect. Truth happens to be the most difficult thing for man to comprehend. It can only be fully comprehended by Insight. Buddhahood is nothing but the embodiment of all the great virtues and supreme enlightenment. That is why Buddhas who could enlighten others are very rare in this world.

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:27 am

Hello Retro,

Ven. Sir was talking about a Sammasambuddha.

How is this comparable in any way whatsoever with what the Buddha taught in many places about what happens to an ordinary unenlightened flux of becoming? i.e. Us.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7052
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:31 am

Greetings Chris,

cooran wrote:How is this comparable in any way whatwoever with what the Buddha taught in many places about what happens to an ordinary unenlightened flux of becoming? i.e. us


Because, just as in the case of the Tathagata, there is no Chris or Paul to be found, here and now either, (1) in the aggregates, (2) as the aggregates, or (3) apart from the aggregates.

Now, since a Chris or Paul is not to be found in this very life, is it proper to say: 'This noble and supreme one has pointed out and explained these four propositions:

A Chris or Paul exists after death;
A Chris or Paul does not exist after death;
A Chris or Paul exists and yet does not exist after death;
A Chris or Paul neither exists nor does not exist after death?'

The puggala is convention only. The Theravada position is quite clear on this, as pointed out in the Kathavatthu (Points Of Controversy).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:.The Theravada position is quite clear on this, as pointed out in the Kathavatthu (Points Of Controversy).

Yes, the Theravada position is quite clear. Actions in a particular life have an effect on birth of another particular life.

And those effects should not be mixed up with an idea of "self".

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 9612
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:44 am

Hello Mike and Retro,

No-body is talking about a self or soul. it is understood as Theravada 101 that all that "you and I and everybody" are, is a temporarily arising and fallling flux of becoming consisting of kammic accumulations and latent tendencies.

Maybe we are talking at cross-purposes?
Please show me where the Buddha taught that what happens at the parinibbana of the Tathagata is the same as what happens to the continuum of an unenlightened satta at death of the body. Or, is this not what you are saying?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7052
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:55 am

Greetings Chris,

cooran wrote:Please show me where the Buddha taught that what happens at the parinibbana of the Tathagata is the same as what happens to the continuum of an unenlightened satta at death of the body. Or, is this not what you are saying?

It seems we are talking slightly at cross-purposes, as that's not what I'm saying at all.

This reminds me of me of how Ajahn Chah used to speak in ultimate terms sometimes and said there was "no Ajahn Chah", but on other occasions, to other people, he would quite happily refer to Ajahn Chah. He could speak (and understand) at either level of truth... ultimate or conventional. The suttas show the Buddha did the same.

Nina van Gorkom quotes the commentaries (see my earlier post) to demonstrate that in Theravada, there are three different ways in which death can be understood in the Theravada tradition. Working out which mode of death is being referred to is imperative in order to work out what kind of answer is appropriate. From his responses, it's evident that Zac meant "conventional death" only.

No-body is talking about a self or soul.

I hope you're correct.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:01 am

Hi Chris,

I was trying to agree with you! There are discourses, such as the one involving Sati, where the key error has to do with thinking of things in terms of a self. It is equally clear from that and other Suttas that there is (not-self) rebirth (for non Arahants).

Your point about the discourses where the Buddha refers to the Tatagatha after death is interesting. Is he speaking specifically about a Buddha, about an Arahant, or about anyone? I'm not aware of any discourses like that where it's not "The Tathagatha", but even if there were, it seems to me that the questions would still be erroneous due to anatta, not because there was no rebirth.

Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 9612
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:06 am

Greetings,

mikenz66 wrote:even if there were, it seems to me that the questions would still be erroneous due to anatta, not because there was no rebirth.

Yes, it's because of anatta that there is no "person" (whether enlightened or otherwise) to be found here-and-now. If there is no "person" here and now, questions about what happens to that "person" at "death" are conventional at best... erroneous at worst. The example raised by Mike of Sati the Fisherman's son illustrates what happens (and how relentless the Buddha was) when someone expressed a theory of transmigration that was incompatible with the teaching of anatta. What zac says earlier in this topic, is a lot like what Sati proposed (see next post...)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:51 am

Greetings,

Speaking of Sati... here is the sutta in question.

MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta
http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm

Thus have I heard:
Once the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's grove, Anathapindika's park. At that time a pernicious view had arisen in a bhikkhu named Sati, the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else." Then many bhikkhus heard that this pernicious view had arisen in the bhikkhu named, Sati the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

Then those bhikkhus approached the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, and asked: "Friend, Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Yes, friends, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

Then those bhikkhus thinking to dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, cross examined him, asked for reasons and discussed with him: "Friend, Sati do not say that, do not misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say that. The Blessed One has shown in various ways, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness." Even when so much was said, he held on to his pernicious view tenaciously and would not give it up and said: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

When the bhikkhus could not dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, they approached the Blessed One, paid homage, sat to one side and said: "Venerable sir, this pernicious view has arisen in a bhikkhu named Sati, the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else." Then we approached the bhikkhu Sati and asked him: "Friend, Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Venerable sir, the bhikkhu Sati said to us: "Yes, friends, ‘as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’." Then we bhikkhus, thinking to dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, cross examined him, asked for reasons and discussed with him: 'Friend, Sati do not say that, do not misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say that. The Blessed One has shown in various ways, that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness'." Even when we cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied together with him, he held on to his pernicious view tenaciously and would not give it up. As we could not dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, we came to inform you about it."

Then the Blessed One addressed a certain bhikkhu and said, "Come bhikkhu, in my name, call the bhikkhu Sati, tell him the Teacher wants him." That bhikkhu consented and approached the bhikkhu Sati and told him, "Friend, the Teacher wants you." The bhikkhu Sati said "Yes, friend" and approached the Blessed One, paid homage and sat to one side.

Then the Blessed One said: "Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

"Sati, what is that consciousness?"

"Venerable sir, it is that which feels and experiences, that which reaps the results of good and evil actions done here and there."

"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, what do you think, has this this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, learned anything from this dispensation?" "No, venerable sir."

When this was said the bhikkhu Sati became silent, unable to reply back, and sat with drooping shoulders and eyes turned down. Then the Blessed One, knowing that the bhikkhu Sati had become silent, unable to reply back, and was sitting with drooping shoulders and with eyes turned down, told him: "Foolish man, you will be known on account of this pernicious view; now I will question the bhikkhus on this."

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, do you too know of this Teaching, the wrong view of the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, on account of which he misrepresents us and also destroys himself and accumulates much suffering?"

"No, venerable sir. In various ways we have been taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness."

"Good, bhikkhus! Good that you know the Dhamma taught by me. In various ways I have taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, by holding to this wrong view, misrepresents us and destroys himself and accumulates much demerit, and it will be for his suffering for a long time.

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. If consciousness arises on account of eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye consciousness. If on account of ear and sounds it arises, it is reckoned as ear consciousness. If on account of nose and smells it arises, it is reckoned as nose consciousness. If on account of tongue and tastes it arises, it is reckoned as tongue consciousness. If on account of body and touch it arises, it is reckoned as body consciousness. If on account of mind and mind-objects it arises, it is reckoned as mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as a fire is reckoned based on whatever that fire burns - fire ablaze on sticks is a stick fire, fire ablaze on twigs is a twig fire, fire ablaze on grass is a grass fire, fire ablaze on cowdung is a cowdung fire, fire ablaze on grain thrash is a grain thrash fire, fire ablaze on rubbish is a rubbish fire - so too is consciousness reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. In the same manner consciousness arisen on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of nose and smells is nose consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of body and touch is body consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of mind and mind-objects is mind consciousness.

"Bhikkhus, do you see, This has arisen?" "Yes, venerable sir". "Do you see it arises supported by That?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, Do you see if the support ceases, the arising too ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, when you are not sure whether something has arisen do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir." "When you are not sure why something has arisen, do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when you are not sure that with ceasing of a certain support, that the arisen too would cease, do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you see with right wisdom, that something has arisen?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you see with right wisdom, that something arises with a support?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you sees with right wisdom that with the cessation of its supports, the arisen also ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, This has arisen - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, This has arisen with That as support - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when that support ceases, the arising too ceases - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, as it really is, with right wisdom, this is arising?." "Yes,venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that this arises supported?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that when the support ceases the arising too ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, do you understand this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you do not covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, would you then know this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, these are the four finds of supports for the maintenance of beings that have arisen and as help for those seeking birth. What four? First is material food, coarse or fine; the second is contact; mental volition is the third and consciousness is the fourth.

"Bhikkhus, from what do these four supports originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"These four supports originate, rise, take birth and develop from craving.

"Bhikkhus, from what does craving originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"Craving originates, rises, takes birth and develops from feelings.

"Bhikkhus, from what do feelings originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"Feelings originate, rise, take birth and develop from contact.

"Bhikkhus, from what does contact originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"Contact originates, rises, takes birth and develops from the sixfold sense base.

"Bhikkhus, from what does the sixfold sense base originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"The sixfold sense base originates, rises, takes birth and develops from name and form.

"Bhikkhus, from what do name and form originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"Name and form originate, rise, take birth and develop from consciousness.

"Bhikkhus, from what does consciousness originate, rise, take birth and develop?.

"Consciousness originates rises, takes birth and develops from [volitional] formations.

"Bhikkhus, from what do [volitional] formations originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"[Volitional] Formations originate, rise, take birth and develop from ignorance.

"Thus bhikkhus, from ignorance arise [volitional] formations, from [volitional] formations consciousness, from consciousness name and form, from name and form the sixfold sense base, from the sixfold sense base contact, from contact feelings, from feelings craving, from craving clinging, from clinging becoming, from becoming birth, from birth old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, it is said, decay and death arise from birth. Do decay and death arise from birth or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, decay and death, arise from birth. We understand it thus: Decay and death arise from birth."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, birth arises from becoming. Does birth arise from becoming or not or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, birth arises from becoming. We understand it thus: Birth arises from becoming."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, becoming arises from clinging. Does becoming arise from clinging or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, becoming rises from clinging. We understand it thus: Becoming arises from clinging."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, clinging arises from craving. Does clinging arise from craving or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, craving arises from clinging. We understand it thus: Craving arises from clinging."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, craving arises from feelings. Does craving arise from feelings or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, craving arises from feelings. We understand it thus: Craving arises from feelings."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, feelings arise from contact. Do feelings arise from contact or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, feelings arise from contact. We understand it thus: Feelings arise from contact."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, contact arises from the sixfold sense base. Does contact arise from the sixfold sense base or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, contact arises from the sixfold sense base. We understand it thus: Contact arises from the sixfold sense base."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, the sixfold sense base arises from name and form. Does the sixfold sense base arise from name and form or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, the sixfold sense base arises from name and form. We understand it thus: the sixfold sense base arises from name and form."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, name and form arise from consciousness. Do name and form arise from consciousness or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, name and form arise from consciousness. We understand it thus: Name and form arise from consciousness."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, consciousness arise from [volitional] formations. Does consciousness arise from [volitional] formations or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, consciousness arises from [volitional] formations. We understand it thus: Consciousness arises from [volitional] formations."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, [volitional] formations arise from ignorance. Do [volitional] formations arise from ignorance or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, [volitional] formations arise from ignorance. We understand it thus: [Volitional] Formations arise from ignorance."

"Good, Bhikkhus! You say this and I also say it. Thus when this is present, that happens. When this arises, that arise. That is, because of ignorance, [volitional] formations arise. Because of [volitional] formations, consciousness arises. Because of consciousness, name and form arise. Because of name and form, the sixfold sense base arises. Because of the sixfold sense base, contact arises. Because of contact, feelings arise. Because of feelings, craving arises. Because of craving, clinging arises. Because of clinging, becoming arises. Because of becoming, birth arises. Because of birth old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"But with the complete cessation of ignorance, [volitional] formations cease. With the complete cessation of [volitional] formations, consciousness ceases. With the cessation of consciousness, name and form cease. With the cessation of name and form, the sixfold sense base ceases. With the cessation of the sixfold sense base, contact ceases. With the cessation of contact, feelings ceases. With the cessation of feelings, craving ceases. With the cessation of craving, clinging ceases. With the cessation of clinging, becoming ceases. With the cessation of becoming, birth ceases. With the cessation of birth, old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress cease. Thus is the complete cessation of dukkha.

"'When birth ceases old age, sickness and death cease' so it was said. Bhikkhus, do old age, sickness and death cease when birth ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen." "Venerable sir, when birth ceases, old age, sickness and death cease. Thus we understand it: 'when birth ceases, old age, sickness and death cease.'"

"'When becoming ceases, birth ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does birth cease when becoming ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when becoming ceases, birth ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When becoming ceases, birth ceases.'"

"'When clinging ceases, becoming ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does clinging cease when becoming ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when clinging ceases, becoming ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When clinging ceases, becoming ceases.'"

"'When craving ceases, clinging ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does craving cease when clinging ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when craving ceases, clinging ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When craving ceases, clinging ceases.'"

"'When feeling ceases, craving ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does craving cease when feeling ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when feeling ceases, craving ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When feeling ceases, craving ceases.'"

"'When contact ceases, feeling ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does feeling cease when contact ceases or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when contact ceases, feeling ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When contact ceases, feeling ceases.'"

"'When the sixfold sense base ceases, contact ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does the sixfold sense base cease when contact ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when the sixfold sense base ceases, contact ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When the sixfold sense base cease, contact ceases.'"

"'When name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does the sixfold sense base cease when name and form cease or does it not, or how do they happen?" "Venerable sir, when name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases.'"

"'When consciousness ceases, name and form cease' so it was said. Bhikkhus, do name and form cease when consciousness ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when consciousness ceases, name and form cease. Thus we understand it: 'When consciousness ceases, name and form cease.'"

"'When [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does consciousness cease when [volitional] formations cease or does it not, or how does it happen?." "Venerable sir, when [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases. Thus we understand it: 'when [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases.'"

"'When ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease' so it is said. Bhikkhus, do [volitional] formations cease when ignorance ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease. Thus we understand it: 'when ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease.'"

"Good, Bhikkhus! You say this and I also say it. Thus when this is present, that happens. When this arises, that arise. That is, because of ignorance, [volitional] formations arise. Because of [volitional] formations, consciousness arises. Because of consciousness, name and form arise. Because of name and form, the sixfold sense base arises. Because of the sixfold sense base, contact arises. Because of contact, feelings arise. Because of feelings, craving arises. Because of craving, clinging arises. Because of clinging, becoming arises. Because of becoming, birth arises. Because of birth, old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would your mind run to the past: 'Was I in the past or was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become?'" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, would you who know and see thus, run to the future: 'Will I be in the future, or will I not be in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become?'" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, would you who know and see thus have doubts about the present: 'Am I, or am I not? What am I? How am I? Where did this being come from? Where will it go?'" "No, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you say: 'We have reverence for the Teacher. We say it out of reverence to the Teacher'?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you say: 'Our recluse said it, these are the recluse’s words. But we do not say that'?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you acknowledge another teacher?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you seek meaning in religious rites, ceremonies or festivals of other recluses and brahmins?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, is it that you yourself knowing, seeing and experiencing this speak thus?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Good, O, Bhikkhus, I have led you in this Dhamma which is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves. It was in reference to this that it was said: 'Bhikkhus, this Dhamma is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves'."

"Bhikkhus, a descent to the womb comes about with the coming together of three things: If there is the union of mother and father, but it is not the season of the mother and the one to be born is not present - then there is no descent to the womb. If there is the union of mother and father and it is the season of the mother but the one to be born is not present - then there is no descent to the womb. If there is the union of mother and father and it is the season of the mother and the one to be born is present - then there is a descent to the womb.

"The mother carries the embryo in her womb for nine or ten months with great anxiety and trouble. After nine or ten months she gives birth with great anxiety and trouble. She supports the newborn with her own blood; for in the Noble Ones’ dispensation mother’s milk is called blood.

"Bhikkhus, that child grows and his faculties mature and he plays games that children play, such as playing with toy ploughs, turning somersaults, making toy wind mills with palm leaves, making small carts and bows. Bhikkhus, that child grows and his faculties mature [further] and the youth enjoys the five strands of sense pleasures; he lives enticed by pleasing and agreeable forms cognizable by eye consciousness, agreeable sounds cognizable by ear consciousness, agreeable smells cognizable by nose consciousness, agreeable tastes cognizable by tongue consciousness and agreeable touches cognizable by body consciousness.

"On seeing a form with the eye he becomes greedy for a pleasant form, or averse to a disagreeable form. He abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. He does not know the deliverance of mind nor the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. He follows the path of agreeing and disagreeing and experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those [pleasant] feelings he appropriates them. This arouses interest in those feelings. That interest for feelings is clinging. From clinging, there arises becoming, from becoming arises birth, from birth old age, sickness and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"Hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a smell with the nose, tasting a taste with the tongue, feeling a touch with the body, thinking a thought with the mind, he becomes greedy for a pleasant experience, or averse to a disagreeable one. He abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. He does not know the deliverance of mind nor the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. He follows the path of agreeing and disagreeing and experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those [pleasant] feelings he appropriates them. This arouses interest in those feelings. That interest for feelings is clinging. From clinging, there arises becoming, from becoming arises birth, from birth old age, sickness and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, a Tathagata arises in the world, a worthy one, perfectly enlightened, endowed with clear knowledge and conduct, accomplished, a knower of the world, unsurpassed trainer of men to be tamed, teacher of gods and men, enlightened and exalted. Having realized by his own direct knowledge this world with its gods, its Maras, and its Brahmas, this generation with its recluses and brahmins, its rulers and people, he makes it known to others. He teaches the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, possessing meaning and phrasing; he reveals the holy life that is fully complete and purified.

"A householder, or a householder's son, or one born into some other family, hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, he gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with such faith, he reflects: 'The household life is crowded, a path of dust. Going forth is like the open air. It is not easy for one dwelling at home to lead the perfectly complete, perfectly purified holy life, bright as a polished conch. Let me then shave off my hair and beard, put on saffron robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness.'

"After some time he abandons his accumulation of wealth, be it large or small; he abandons his circle of relatives, be it large or small; he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on saffron robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness.

"When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by the rules of the Patimokkha, possessed of proper behavior and resort. Abandoning the taking of life, he abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings.

"Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He takes only what is given, accepts only what is given, lives not by stealth but in honesty with a pure mind.

"Abandoning incelibacy, he lives a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way.

"Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.

"Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord.

"Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing and pleasing to people at large.

"Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, and the Discipline. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.

"He abstains from damaging seed and plant life.

"He eats only in one part of the day, refraining from food at night and from eating at improper times.

"He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and from witnessing unsuitable shows.

"He abstains from wearing garlands and from beautifying himself with scents and cosmetics.

"He abstains from high and luxurious beds and seats.

"He abstains from accepting gold and silver.

"He abstains from accepting uncooked grain... raw meat... women and girls... male and female slaves... goats and sheep... fowl and pigs... elephants, cattle, steeds, and mares... fields and property.

"He abstains from accepting fields and lands.

"He abstains from running messages... from buying and selling... from dealing with false scales, false metals, and false measures... from bribery, deception, and fraud.

"He abstains from mutilating, executing, imprisoning, highway robbery, plunder, and violence.

"Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is a bhikkhu is content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along.

"On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense faculties, he experiences within himself an unblemished happiness.

"In going forward and returning, a bhikkhu acts with clear comprehension. In looking ahead and looking aside, he acts with clear comprehension. In bending and stretching his limbs, he acts with clear comprehension. In wearing his robes and cloak and using his almsbowl, he acts with clear comprehension. In eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, he acts with clear comprehension. In defecating and urinating, he acts with clear comprehension. In walking, standing, sitting, lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, he acts with clear comprehension.

"Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and clear comprehension, and this noble contentment, he resorts to a secluded dwelling - a forest, the foot of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a cremation ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After returning from his alms-round, following his meal, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and sets up mindfulness before him.

"Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and worry, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and worry. Abandoning doubt, he dwells having crossed over doubt, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of doubt.

"Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and remains in the first Jhana which is filled with rapture and happiness born of seclusion and is accompanied by applied and sustained thinking.

"With the stilling of applied and sustained thinking, by gaining inner tranquility and unification of mind, he enters and remains in the second Jhana which is free from applied and sustained thinking and is filled with rapture and happiness born of concentration.

"With the fading away of rapture, remaining imperturbable, mindful, and clearly aware, he enters the third Jhana and experiences within himself the joy of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Happy is he who dwells with equanimity and mindfulness.'

"With the abandoning of pleasure and pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of joy and sorrow -- he enters and remains in the fourth Jhana which is beyond pleasure and pain; and purified by equanimity and mindfulness.

"On seeing a form with the eye he does not become greedy for pleasant forms, or averse to disagreeable forms. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasurable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no becoming; no becoming, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

"On hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a smell with the nose, tasting a taste with the tongue, feeling a touch with the body, thinking a thought with the mind, he does not become greedy for pleasant experiences, or averse to disagreeable ones. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasurable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no becoming; no becoming, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, remember this deliverance through the destruction of craving as taught in brief by me. But the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, is caught in a net of much craving."

The Blessed One said this and those bhikkhus delighted in the words of the Blessed One.


zac wrote:what i'm saying is: is there a temporary state between death and rebirth in which the consciousness is active? like you die, then slip into a dream world for a few days, then are reborn with no memories of anything (because only your karmic storehouse is transferred).

zac wrote:again as far as i know he did not, which in my opinion, would imply that one is instantaneously transferred from one's dead body to an awaiting fetus or egg/sperm combo.

zac wrote:i don't think my topic needs any re-wording. honestly i don't understand what everyone's game is here, it's actually kind of strange.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:36 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Chris,

I was trying to agree with you! There are discourses, such as the one involving Sati, where the key error has to do with thinking of things in terms of a self. It is equally clear from that and other Suttas that there is (not-self) rebirth (for non Arahants).

Your point about the discourses where the Buddha refers to the Tatagatha after death is interesting. Is he speaking specifically about a Buddha, about an Arahant, or about anyone? I'm not aware of any discourses like that where it's not "The Tathagatha", but even if there were, it seems to me that the questions would still be erroneous due to anatta, not because there was no rebirth.

Mike


:rofl: Sorry Mike ~ I had one eye on the Computer Screen and one eye on the clock - needed to scoot over to the nearest stationery shop to buy pockets for an office drawer and manilla folders to make files.

Back now and apologize for misreading you (I have to admit I was surprised at what I thought you had said! :jumping: )

with mettta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7052
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Anicca » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:56 am

mikenz66 wrote:It's not easy to reconcile the various teachings on about rebirth, kamma, anatta, dependent origination. If it were, we would all be awakened already...


:goodpost:
Anicca
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:28 am

cooran wrote:
The question in the title of this thread is:

"according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?"


Cooran, repeating the original question of the OP, as I did, is being respectful to the topic question, and bringing it back to people's memories.

The topic almost got derailed however, by suggesting that another question would have been more interesting to ask, or when word analisations dominated it, however well-intended that certainly was.
It wasn't nice for Zac who repeatedly complained about the OTs and about nitpicking, to no avail.

cooran wrote:As this is the Classical Theravada Forum, can we keep discussion within those parameters?


Nothing else was intended, by reminding A.,:of the topic, and B.,: that if there are notions in other schools, surely there must be sources in the Pali canon as well...?

cooran wrote:Let's not let yet another thread degenerate.


I'm looking forward to this and of course hope all distractions will fall away. :buddha1:

the english words in the translations depend upon the knowledge and decisions of the translator. They are not the actual word used by the Buddha, and you can have different english words used in different translations. It is pointless saying "See! the Buddha said reborn" - correct understanding depends upon the skill of the translator, and the knowledge of the person reading it. Confusion can occur by just taking a word and giving it a modern-day meaning.


Are you saying that Thanissaro Bikkhu is lacking in translation skills here? Or that a lot of readers will misunderstand his translation? Wouldn't he have considered that?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

MN 135
PTS: M iii 202
Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Shorter Analysis of Action
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Metta,

Anna
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Annapurna
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:
a Chris or Paul is not to be found in this very life


Good to know next time we sit in the dentist's chair . We won't even need an anesthetic!

It doesn't exist anyways....

:rofl:

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Annapurna
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,

cooran wrote:How is this comparable in any way whatwoever with what the Buddha taught in many places about what happens to an ordinary unenlightened flux of becoming? i.e. us


Because, just as in the case of the Tathagata, there is no Chris or Paul to be found, here and now either, (1) in the aggregates, (2) as the aggregates, or (3) apart from the aggregates.
There is dukkha to be found.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 18352
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Turtle Island

Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:25 am

Precisely so, Tilt.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14520
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PreviousNext

Return to Classical Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests