according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Anicca
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by Anicca »

mikenz66 wrote:It's not easy to reconcile the various teachings on about rebirth, kamma, anatta, dependent origination. If it were, we would all be awakened already...
:goodpost:
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Annapurna
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by Annapurna »

cooran wrote:
The question in the title of this thread is:

"according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?"
Cooran, repeating the original question of the OP, as I did, is being respectful to the topic question, and bringing it back to people's memories.

The topic almost got derailed however, by suggesting that another question would have been more interesting to ask, or when word analisations dominated it, however well-intended that certainly was.
It wasn't nice for Zac who repeatedly complained about the OTs and about nitpicking, to no avail.
cooran wrote:As this is the Classical Theravada Forum, can we keep discussion within those parameters?
Nothing else was intended, by reminding A.,:of the topic, and B.,: that if there are notions in other schools, surely there must be sources in the Pali canon as well...?
cooran wrote:Let's not let yet another thread degenerate.
I'm looking forward to this and of course hope all distractions will fall away. :buddha1:
the english words in the translations depend upon the knowledge and decisions of the translator. They are not the actual word used by the Buddha, and you can have different english words used in different translations. It is pointless saying "See! the Buddha said reborn" - correct understanding depends upon the skill of the translator, and the knowledge of the person reading it. Confusion can occur by just taking a word and giving it a modern-day meaning.
Are you saying that Thanissaro Bikkhu is lacking in translation skills here? Or that a lot of readers will misunderstand his translation? Wouldn't he have considered that?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MN 135
PTS: M iii 202
Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Shorter Analysis of Action
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Metta,

Anna
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Annapurna
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by Annapurna »

retrofuturist wrote:
a Chris or Paul is not to be found in this very life
Good to know next time we sit in the dentist's chair . We won't even need an anesthetic!

It doesn't exist anyways....

:rofl:

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,
cooran wrote:How is this comparable in any way whatwoever with what the Buddha taught in many places about what happens to an ordinary unenlightened flux of becoming? i.e. us
Because, just as in the case of the Tathagata, there is no Chris or Paul to be found, here and now either, (1) in the aggregates, (2) as the aggregates, or (3) apart from the aggregates.
There is dukkha to be found.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by retrofuturist »

Precisely so, Tilt.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by PeterB »

zac wrote:ACCORDING TO THE PALI CANON, what happens after you die?

obviously we all know the over all idea of karma affecting one's rebirth. you die and are reborn in one of six realms in such and such conditions depending on your merit. as far as my studies have gone, in a nutshell, this is all that was said on the topic.

did the buddha ever say what the process was between the moment of death and the moment of birth?

again as far as i know he did not, which in my opinion, would imply that one is instantaneously transferred from one's dead body to an awaiting fetus or egg/sperm combo.

does anyone know any more about this?

P.S. also i know what other traditions say happens between this life and the next. there are some really cool teachings about it that are mind blowing and a little scary. i've read many books on the subject that were, to my great delight, better than some non-buddhist fictional novels and movies i've known on the topic of death and the afterlife! if you know about these things, it's not necessary to try to school me on them. like i said, i already know about them. i always wondered if even a granule of any of it came from the buddha himself as, if it did, i might want to practice some lucid dreaming techniques to prepare a little;)

if you don't know about the after death stuff from other traditions, by all means ask me and i'll tell you about them and recommend some good books! super cool stuff regardless of where they came from!
It would appear that there is no clear cut answer to the question. Only an invitation to to the experiential.
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retrofuturist
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Anna,
Annapurna wrote:Are you saying that Thanissaro Bikkhu is lacking in translation skills here? Or that a lot of readers will misunderstand his translation? Wouldn't he have considered that?
I suspect rather than dismissing Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Cooran is actually suggesting that Zac shouldn't gloat when, on first glance, someone seems to agree with what he says. Rather, he should continue to investigate, consider, reflect and continue searching for the truth, lest he mistakenly find false solace.

On the flipside to the gloating, he probably shouldn't get in a huff when someone doesn't agree with his views either. Best not to attach self-worth to views presented, nor oscillate between gloating and whinging.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:nor oscillate between gloating and whinging.
Ay, there be Charibdys and Scylla
Scylla%201.jpg
Scylla%201.jpg (87.72 KiB) Viewed 3907 times
Having written an offtopic post in the Classical Forum, I'll just slink away and flagelate myself for awhile...
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Annapurna
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by Annapurna »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Anna,
Annapurna wrote:Are you saying that Thanissaro Bikkhu is lacking in translation skills here? Or that a lot of readers will misunderstand his translation? Wouldn't he have considered that?
I suspect rather than dismissing Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Cooran is actually suggesting that Zac shouldn't gloat when, on first glance, someone seems to agree with what he says. Rather, he should continue to investigate, consider, reflect and continue searching for the truth, lest he mistakenly find false solace.

On the flipside to the gloating, he probably shouldn't get in a huff when someone doesn't agree with his views either. Best not to attach self-worth to views presented, nor oscillate between gloating and whinging.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Greetings, Retro,

I understand your point.

What you or Chris experience as 'gloating' however, could also be an understandable relief about feeling understood and getting some support, after sidealleys and lots of details.
I am happy to repeat I have seen best intentions.

His seniors in Buddhism are certainly happy to expect less of him than of themselves.

So, if they see that somebody is in a huff, it's easier for them to step back and be mindful of right speech than for him and speak again at the right time, affectionately.
:smile:

This piece of the Buddha I read quite often:
That's what the enlightened ones speak without anger or arrogance, with a mind not boiling over, without vehemence, without spite. Without envy they speak from right knowledge. They would delight in what's well-said and not disparage what's not. They don't study to find fault, don't grasp at little mistakes. don't put down, don't crush, don't speak random words. For the purpose of knowledge, for the purpose of [inspiring] clear confidence, counsel that's true: That's how noble ones give counsel, That's the noble ones' counsel. Knowing this, the wise should give counsel without arrogance." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With metta,

Anna
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acinteyyo
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by acinteyyo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Speaking of Sati... here is the sutta in question.

MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta
http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[...]
zac wrote:what i'm saying is: is there a temporary state between death and rebirth in which the consciousness is active? like you die, then slip into a dream world for a few days, then are reborn with no memories of anything (because only your karmic storehouse is transferred).
zac wrote:again as far as i know he did not, which in my opinion, would imply that one is instantaneously transferred from one's dead body to an awaiting fetus or egg/sperm combo.
zac wrote:i don't think my topic needs any re-wording. honestly i don't understand what everyone's game is here, it's actually kind of strange.
Metta,
Retro. :)
:goodpost:
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by dhammastudier »

ok i give up. i'm probably not going to post on here anymore unless there's a question that cannot be answered any other way. not that this is a bad thing but there are too many overly critical people and too many micro managers on here. again, not a bad thing but not for me. i prefer a more open and flowing communication as opposed to arguments over semantics of minute details. i'll save my questions for the monks, nuns, and lay practitioners at the temple i go to because i've NEVER had this type of over-critiquing and micro-management there or at any temple and i probably never will.

i really appreciate all the answers to my questions though guys! lot's of learned folks on here! thanks so much!
:heart:
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Annapurna
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by Annapurna »

Hey, Zac. People will always have differing opinions. No big deal. Everybody is entitled to having their own unique stance, and reacting with anger is not helpful.

It will go away. Meanwhile, perhaps enjoy what the Buddha said about the difficulties we all occasionally encounter. Pleasure and stress, always the same.
"There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to ugliness: to be ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, to grow offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man is not ill-tempered or easily upset; even when heavily criticized, he/she doesn't grow offended, provoked, malicious, or resentful; doesn't show annoyance, aversion, or bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is beautiful wherever reborn. This is the way leading to beauty: not to be ill-tempered or easily upset; even when heavily criticized, not to be offended, provoked, malicious, or resentful; nor to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.

Why not ask your question over at our sisterforum Dharmawheel? Perhaps those replies may bring you interesting mind food? :smile:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes!
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kc2dpt
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by kc2dpt »

retrofuturist wrote:What zac says earlier in this topic, is a lot like what Sati proposed
One could decide to read zac's posts in that way. One could also decide to read them as he intended - a simple question about the interval between death and birth.

I find there is a tendency on internet forums to read a post in the worst way possible. I have likewise found this tendency to be largely absent in live, face to face communications.
Annapurna wrote:
cooran wrote:As this is the Classical Theravada Forum, can we keep discussion within those parameters?
Nothing else was intended, by reminding A.,:of the topic, and B.,: that if there are notions in other schools, surely there must be sources in the Pali canon as well...?
No, there isn't. These notions you mention are one of the major differences between Theravada and other schools. :o
zac wrote:ok i give up. i'm probably not going to post on here anymore unless there's a question that cannot be answered any other way.
I find that is best. :)
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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kc2dpt
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by kc2dpt »

The problem, in brief, is internet forums are crawling with folks who assert a permanent self. This results in other internet folks who are super-sensitive to any statement which even remotely hints at a permanent self. Then there are other folks who get caught in the middle. :group:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Annapurna
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Post by Annapurna »

Hello, Peter.

My replies are in blue in your text.
Peter wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:What zac says earlier in this topic, is a lot like what Sati proposed
One could decide to read zac's posts in that way. One could also decide to read them as he intended - a simple question about the interval between death and birth.

I find there is a tendency on internet forums to read a post in the worst way possible. I have likewise found this tendency to be largely absent in live, face to face communications.


True.
Annapurna wrote:
cooran wrote:As this is the Classical Theravada Forum, can we keep discussion within those parameters?
Nothing else was intended, by reminding A.,:of the topic, and B.,: that if there are notions in other schools, surely there must be sources in the Pali canon as well...?
No, there isn't. These notions you mention are one of the major differences between Theravada and other schools. :o

ok. So why wasn't that said from the start, only PeterB said it in such clarity. Instead, we had red herrings.
zac wrote:ok i give up. i'm probably not going to post on here anymore unless there's a question that cannot be answered any other way.
I find that is best. :)

i'm probably not going to post on here anymore

sounds sad and defeated to me. :(
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