according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby PeterB » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:28 am

zac wrote:ACCORDING TO THE PALI CANON, what happens after you die?

obviously we all know the over all idea of karma affecting one's rebirth. you die and are reborn in one of six realms in such and such conditions depending on your merit. as far as my studies have gone, in a nutshell, this is all that was said on the topic.

did the buddha ever say what the process was between the moment of death and the moment of birth?

again as far as i know he did not, which in my opinion, would imply that one is instantaneously transferred from one's dead body to an awaiting fetus or egg/sperm combo.

does anyone know any more about this?

P.S. also i know what other traditions say happens between this life and the next. there are some really cool teachings about it that are mind blowing and a little scary. i've read many books on the subject that were, to my great delight, better than some non-buddhist fictional novels and movies i've known on the topic of death and the afterlife! if you know about these things, it's not necessary to try to school me on them. like i said, i already know about them. i always wondered if even a granule of any of it came from the buddha himself as, if it did, i might want to practice some lucid dreaming techniques to prepare a little;)

if you don't know about the after death stuff from other traditions, by all means ask me and i'll tell you about them and recommend some good books! super cool stuff regardless of where they came from!

It would appear that there is no clear cut answer to the question. Only an invitation to to the experiential.
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:32 am

Greetings Anna,

Annapurna wrote:Are you saying that Thanissaro Bikkhu is lacking in translation skills here? Or that a lot of readers will misunderstand his translation? Wouldn't he have considered that?

I suspect rather than dismissing Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Cooran is actually suggesting that Zac shouldn't gloat when, on first glance, someone seems to agree with what he says. Rather, he should continue to investigate, consider, reflect and continue searching for the truth, lest he mistakenly find false solace.

On the flipside to the gloating, he probably shouldn't get in a huff when someone doesn't agree with his views either. Best not to attach self-worth to views presented, nor oscillate between gloating and whinging.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Ben » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:48 am

retrofuturist wrote:nor oscillate between gloating and whinging.


Ay, there be Charibdys and Scylla
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Having written an offtopic post in the Classical Forum, I'll just slink away and flagelate myself for awhile...
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
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but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Anna,

Annapurna wrote:Are you saying that Thanissaro Bikkhu is lacking in translation skills here? Or that a lot of readers will misunderstand his translation? Wouldn't he have considered that?


I suspect rather than dismissing Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Cooran is actually suggesting that Zac shouldn't gloat when, on first glance, someone seems to agree with what he says. Rather, he should continue to investigate, consider, reflect and continue searching for the truth, lest he mistakenly find false solace.

On the flipside to the gloating, he probably shouldn't get in a huff when someone doesn't agree with his views either. Best not to attach self-worth to views presented, nor oscillate between gloating and whinging.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Greetings, Retro,

I understand your point.

What you or Chris experience as 'gloating' however, could also be an understandable relief about feeling understood and getting some support, after sidealleys and lots of details.
I am happy to repeat I have seen best intentions.

His seniors in Buddhism are certainly happy to expect less of him than of themselves.

So, if they see that somebody is in a huff, it's easier for them to step back and be mindful of right speech than for him and speak again at the right time, affectionately.
:smile:

This piece of the Buddha I read quite often:

That's what the enlightened ones speak without anger or arrogance, with a mind not boiling over, without vehemence, without spite. Without envy they speak from right knowledge. They would delight in what's well-said and not disparage what's not. They don't study to find fault, don't grasp at little mistakes. don't put down, don't crush, don't speak random words. For the purpose of knowledge, for the purpose of [inspiring] clear confidence, counsel that's true: That's how noble ones give counsel, That's the noble ones' counsel. Knowing this, the wise should give counsel without arrogance." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


With metta,

Anna
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Speaking of Sati... here is the sutta in question.

MN 38: Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta
http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm

[...]

zac wrote:what i'm saying is: is there a temporary state between death and rebirth in which the consciousness is active? like you die, then slip into a dream world for a few days, then are reborn with no memories of anything (because only your karmic storehouse is transferred).

zac wrote:again as far as i know he did not, which in my opinion, would imply that one is instantaneously transferred from one's dead body to an awaiting fetus or egg/sperm combo.

zac wrote:i don't think my topic needs any re-wording. honestly i don't understand what everyone's game is here, it's actually kind of strange.

Metta,
Retro. :)


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Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby dhammastudier » Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:40 pm

ok i give up. i'm probably not going to post on here anymore unless there's a question that cannot be answered any other way. not that this is a bad thing but there are too many overly critical people and too many micro managers on here. again, not a bad thing but not for me. i prefer a more open and flowing communication as opposed to arguments over semantics of minute details. i'll save my questions for the monks, nuns, and lay practitioners at the temple i go to because i've NEVER had this type of over-critiquing and micro-management there or at any temple and i probably never will.

i really appreciate all the answers to my questions though guys! lot's of learned folks on here! thanks so much!
:heart:
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:15 pm

Hey, Zac. People will always have differing opinions. No big deal. Everybody is entitled to having their own unique stance, and reacting with anger is not helpful.

It will go away. Meanwhile, perhaps enjoy what the Buddha said about the difficulties we all occasionally encounter. Pleasure and stress, always the same.

"There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to ugliness: to be ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, to grow offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man is not ill-tempered or easily upset; even when heavily criticized, he/she doesn't grow offended, provoked, malicious, or resentful; doesn't show annoyance, aversion, or bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is beautiful wherever reborn. This is the way leading to beauty: not to be ill-tempered or easily upset; even when heavily criticized, not to be offended, provoked, malicious, or resentful; nor to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.



Why not ask your question over at our sisterforum Dharmawheel? Perhaps those replies may bring you interesting mind food? :smile:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/index.php

Best wishes!
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:01 pm

retrofuturist wrote:What zac says earlier in this topic, is a lot like what Sati proposed

One could decide to read zac's posts in that way. One could also decide to read them as he intended - a simple question about the interval between death and birth.

I find there is a tendency on internet forums to read a post in the worst way possible. I have likewise found this tendency to be largely absent in live, face to face communications.

Annapurna wrote:
cooran wrote:As this is the Classical Theravada Forum, can we keep discussion within those parameters?
Nothing else was intended, by reminding A.,:of the topic, and B.,: that if there are notions in other schools, surely there must be sources in the Pali canon as well...?

No, there isn't. These notions you mention are one of the major differences between Theravada and other schools. :o

zac wrote:ok i give up. i'm probably not going to post on here anymore unless there's a question that cannot be answered any other way.

I find that is best. :)
- Peter

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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:08 pm

The problem, in brief, is internet forums are crawling with folks who assert a permanent self. This results in other internet folks who are super-sensitive to any statement which even remotely hints at a permanent self. Then there are other folks who get caught in the middle. :group:
- Peter

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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:22 pm

Hello, Peter.

My replies are in blue in your text.

Peter wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:What zac says earlier in this topic, is a lot like what Sati proposed

One could decide to read zac's posts in that way. One could also decide to read them as he intended - a simple question about the interval between death and birth.

I find there is a tendency on internet forums to read a post in the worst way possible. I have likewise found this tendency to be largely absent in live, face to face communications.


True.

Annapurna wrote:
cooran wrote:As this is the Classical Theravada Forum, can we keep discussion within those parameters?
Nothing else was intended, by reminding A.,:of the topic, and B.,: that if there are notions in other schools, surely there must be sources in the Pali canon as well...?


No, there isn't. These notions you mention are one of the major differences between Theravada and other schools. :o

ok. So why wasn't that said from the start, only PeterB said it in such clarity. Instead, we had red herrings.

zac wrote:ok i give up. i'm probably not going to post on here anymore unless there's a question that cannot be answered any other way.


I find that is best. :)

i'm probably not going to post on here anymore

sounds sad and defeated to me. :(

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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby kc2dpt » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:24 pm

Annapurna wrote:ok. So why wasn't that said from the start[?]

Wasn't it said in the second post?
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Ben » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:00 pm

MODERATOR NOTE

Any further off-topic posts, posts which do not conform to the guidelines of the Classical Theravada Forum and meta-discussions will be removed without warning. Repeat offenses may attract disciplinary action.
Please get back on topic, ladies and gentlemen.

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Annapurna » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:24 am

Rebirth takes place immediately, irrespective of the place of birth, just as an electromagnetic wave, projected into space, is immediately reproduced in a receiving radio set. Rebirth of the mental flux is also instantaneous and leaves no room whatever for any intermediate state [7] (antarabhava). Pure Buddhism does not support the belief that a spirit of the deceased person takes lodgement in some temporary state until it finds a suitable place for its "reincarnation."


This should sum it up then. :buddha1:

(From post 2)
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby smokey » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:20 pm

This is to be done by one skilled in aims who wants to break through to the state of peace: Be capable, upright, & straightforward, easy to instruct, gentle, & not conceited, content & easy to support, with few duties, living lightly, with peaceful faculties, masterful, modest, & no greed for supporters. Do not do the slightest thing that the wise would later censure. Think: Happy, at rest, may all beings be happy at heart. Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart. Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. As a mother would risk her life to protect her child, her only child, even so should one cultivate a limitless heart with regard to all beings. With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate. Whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, as long as one is alert, one should be resolved on this mindfulness. This is called a sublime abiding here & now. Not taken with views, but virtuous & consummate in vision, having subdued desire for sensual pleasures, one never again will lie in the womb.
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby suriyopama » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:12 am

smokey wrote:born & seeking birth


Interesing quote, smokey. You've managed to make everybody silent on this subject. 8-)

This are the translations available at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Born & seeking birth" (Thanissaro)
"Existing or yet seeking to exist" (Ñanamoli Thera)
"Those born and to-be-born" (The Amaravati Sangha)
"The born and those seeking birth" (Acharya Buddharakkhita)
"Those who are born as well as those yet to be born" (Piyadassi Thera)
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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby vishy89 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:09 am

My understanding is:

Nama continues from life to life. Rupa is left here.
The one who is reborn is neither the same nor different than the one who dies(remember 'seal', echo similie).This is supported by anatta doctrine.
The Buddha recounting his previous lives is vovaharica sacca.
I welcome your views on the above points.
May I know what are the contents of Patisandhi chitta as per Dhammasangini/Abhidhamma?

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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby plwk » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:09 am

did the buddha ever say what the process was between the moment of death and the moment of birth?

Kutuhalasala Sutta
I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance, Vaccha, and not of one without sustenance.
Just as a fire burns with sustenance and not without sustenance, even so I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance and not of one without sustenance."

"But, Master Gotama, at the moment a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I designate it as wind-sustained, for the wind is its sustenance at that time."

"And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."

:smile:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: according to the pali canon, what happens after you die?

Postby Virgo » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:29 am

vishy89 wrote:My understanding is:

Nama continues from life to life. Rupa is left here.


Metta

Rupa is not left here. Rupa dissolves almost as quickly as it appears. The idea of a "body" is panatti, a conceptual understanding experienced only by nama. Each individual rupa arises and falls away extremely quickly. They are all anatta. Even after the death of the body, there are still conditions for certain new rupa to arise within it.

I hope this helps.

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