I have noticed a slight trend in some western buddhists appling the teaching of the middle way to alcohol, saying that as long as you dont over indulge then its ok. I myself, since becoming a buddhist, have not touched a drop as I feel the teachings are pretty clear in reguard to alcohol.
Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?
Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
Alcohol
Re: Alcohol
I didnt get in trouble everytime i was drinking but everytime i was in trouble i was drinking. For me and alcohol there is no middle way. It has caused me enough trouble in my life and abstinence is not that big of a deal for me anymore.clw_uk wrote:I have noticed a slight trend in some western buddhists appling the teaching of the middle way to alcohol, saying that as long as you dont over indulge then its ok. I myself, since becoming a buddhist, have not touched a drop as I feel the teachings are pretty clear in reguard to alcohol.
Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?
Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
I like what the Sigalovada Sutta has to say about alcohol:
"These are the six dangers inherent in heedlessness caused by intoxication: loss of immediate wealth, increased quarreling, susceptibility to illness, disrepute, indecent exposure, and weakened insight.
"Who plays with dice and drinks intoxicants, goes to women who are dear unto others as their own lives, associates with the mean and not with elders — he declines just as the moon during the waning half.
"Who is drunk, poor, destitute, still thirsty whilst drinking, frequents the bars, sinks in debt as a stone in water, swiftly brings disrepute to his family.
"Who by habit sleeps by day, and keeps late hours, is ever intoxicated, and is licentious, is not fit to lead a household life.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Alcohol
Thank you for those quotes
I to cannot practice the middle way with alcohol, dont know when to say no once i start.
There is one story I like reguarding the drinking of alcohol
I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.
I to cannot practice the middle way with alcohol, dont know when to say no once i start.
There is one story I like reguarding the drinking of alcohol
Think it puts accross quite well how drink can lead to making more unwholesome kammaThere was a monk who was meditating in a cave when Mara appeared before him along with wine, a woman and a warrior.
Mara said that the monk must either drink the wine, have sex with the woman or kill the warrior or otherwise Mara would kill him.
The monk considered, he knew that doing any of these things would be breaking the Vinaya but he decided to go with the one he thought would be least damaging, so he drank the wine.
Then killed the warrior
Then had sex with the woman
I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Alcohol
I always liked that story. I can definitely relate. Once i got started drinking anything and everything was off the table.clw_uk wrote:Thank you for those quotes
I to cannot practice the middle way with alcohol, dont know when to say no once i start.
There is one story I like reguarding the drinking of alcohol
Think it puts accross quite well how drink can lead to making more unwholesome kammaThere was a monk who was meditating in a cave when Mara appeared before him along with wine, a woman and a warrior.
Mara said that the monk must either drink the wine, have sex with the woman or kill the warrior or otherwise Mara would kill him.
The monk considered, he knew that doing any of these things would be breaking the Vinaya but he decided to go with the one he thought would be least damaging, so he drank the wine.
Then killed the warrior
Then had sex with the woman
I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Alcohol
The problem with alcohol is after one glass you think you can have just one more, then maybe another ... then ...
I find it easier just not to drink at all.
with metta
GRAHAM
I find it easier just not to drink at all.
with metta
GRAHAM
clw_uk wrote:Thank you for those quotes
I to cannot practice the middle way with alcohol, dont know when to say no once i start.
There is one story I like reguarding the drinking of alcohol
Think it puts accross quite well how drink can lead to making more unwholesome kammaThere was a monk who was meditating in a cave when Mara appeared before him along with wine, a woman and a warrior.
Mara said that the monk must either drink the wine, have sex with the woman or kill the warrior or otherwise Mara would kill him.
The monk considered, he knew that doing any of these things would be breaking the Vinaya but he decided to go with the one he thought would be least damaging, so he drank the wine.
Then killed the warrior
Then had sex with the woman
I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.
With metta
Graham
Graham
Re: Alcohol
Its important to practice the panca-sila with fidelity. This supports and protects us and our practice.In the particular case of the use of alcohol its also includes the dangers inherant in alcohol based activities. I have often thought of booze as concentrated Mara in a bottle.
John
John
Re: Alcohol
I have often thought of booze as concentrated Mara in a bottle.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Alcohol
§ A young man was discussing the precepts with Ajaan Fuang and came to number five, against taking intoxicants: "The Buddha forbade alcohol because most people lose their mindfulness when they drink it, right? But if you drink mindfully it's okay, isn't it, Than Phaw?"
"If you were really mindful," he answered, "you wouldn't drink it in the first place."
Re: Alcohol
I have absolutely no desire left for alcohol, this fog in the head isclw_uk wrote:I have noticed a slight trend in some western buddhists appling the teaching of the middle way to alcohol, saying that as long as you dont over indulge then its ok. I myself, since becoming a buddhist, have not touched a drop as I feel the teachings are pretty clear in reguard to alcohol.
Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?
Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
Very seldom I drink a little as medicine when I ate too greasy and have indigestion.
That' s it.
Re: Alcohol
Hi Craig
Kind regards
Ben
I don't know, but I do.clw_uk wrote:Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?
One can certainly drink in moderation. However, drinking any quantity is incompatible with the fifth precept. And sila is fundamental to mental cultivation.clw_uk wrote: Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Alcohol
I agree with Ben. Any amount of alcohol messes with the mind.
I don't not drink because I think it's "bad". I don't drink because I know the mind is much clearer without it (from memory and from occasionally accidentally imbibing a little from supposedly non-alcoholic sources...).
Metta
Mike
I don't not drink because I think it's "bad". I don't drink because I know the mind is much clearer without it (from memory and from occasionally accidentally imbibing a little from supposedly non-alcoholic sources...).
Metta
Mike
Re: Alcohol
I'm also completely abstinent when it comes to alcohol.
The other day actually, I went to a meet-up with one of my university groups to a bar/restaurant. The drinking seemed to get a little out of hand and one of the guys asked if I wanted anything. I politely refused and explained the precept. I was more comfortable because most of them are Buddhist (the club is mostly East Asians) and although they respected my lifestyle, it was surprising that they too were Buddhist and drink so heavily. I guess different cultures have taken on fairly different interpretations.
The other day actually, I went to a meet-up with one of my university groups to a bar/restaurant. The drinking seemed to get a little out of hand and one of the guys asked if I wanted anything. I politely refused and explained the precept. I was more comfortable because most of them are Buddhist (the club is mostly East Asians) and although they respected my lifestyle, it was surprising that they too were Buddhist and drink so heavily. I guess different cultures have taken on fairly different interpretations.
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Re: Alcohol
I feel I should practice abstinence from alcohol, based on experience, and because my father's an alcoholic...clw_uk wrote:I have noticed a slight trend in some western buddhists appling the teaching of the middle way to alcohol, saying that as long as you dont over indulge then its ok. I myself, since becoming a buddhist, have not touched a drop as I feel the teachings are pretty clear in reguard to alcohol.
Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?
Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
...But I don't, because of craving. Not an alcoholic myself, but I occasionally enjoy getting a bit drunk (about 4-5 beers over a few hours), only at night of course, though. Drinking in the morning isn't good because of how awful you feel afterwards.
The important thing to recognize is the intention. Taking a substance with the intent to get intoxicated is reckless. And alcohol tastes awful, so people pretty much always drink it because of unskillful intentions.
Last edited by Individual on Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Alcohol
I must confess that I have not been able to abstain from intoxicants. But lucky for me, my body can only take a small amount of alcohol. I have 3 drinks over the course of the entire night and that's plenty for me. But I certainly don't see this as an excuse. I do feel the effects of alcohol on my practice. I can feel its clouding effects on the mind. And I do realise that there are consequences I have to bear. So far, I've managed to sit in the morning even when I drink the night before. I plan to keep doing so.
Perhaps I cannot be considered an upasaka. But I accept that this is where I'm at at this point of my life. I recognise that although I am as yet unable to keep the fifth precept, it can nevertheless be an aspiration of my spiritual endeavours.
Metta,
zavk
Perhaps I cannot be considered an upasaka. But I accept that this is where I'm at at this point of my life. I recognise that although I am as yet unable to keep the fifth precept, it can nevertheless be an aspiration of my spiritual endeavours.
Metta,
zavk
With metta,
zavk
zavk
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Re: Alcohol
That is largely the allure of alcohol. When you get drunk, you feel an illusion of joy, strength, and confidence, by being mindless of the way things really are. In general, I think the feeling of euphoria associated with intoxicants can always be traced back to a kind of physiologically-conditioned mindlessness.clw_uk wrote:Think it puts accross quite well how drink can lead to making more unwholesome kammaThere was a monk who was meditating in a cave when Mara appeared before him along with wine, a woman and a warrior.
Mara said that the monk must either drink the wine, have sex with the woman or kill the warrior or otherwise Mara would kill him.
The monk considered, he knew that doing any of these things would be breaking the Vinaya but he decided to go with the one he thought would be least damaging, so he drank the wine.
Then killed the warrior
Then had sex with the woman
I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.