Goenka technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
rowyourboat
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by rowyourboat »

I have not attended Goenka retreat but have heard tapes of his. So this is just my opinon. I feel there he uses certain terms differently from the suttas: As far as suttas go there are controversies regarding Goenka's interpretation of vedana:
suttas often seem to depic vedana as an applicable term to all stimuli (denoting its pleasant, unpleasant or neutral nature) arising from any of the sense bases

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... l#sn27.005" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This has knock on effects as to what is being practiced -whether it is vedananupassana or kayanupassana (or even dhammanupassana using only one sense door)

another is his usage of the term sankhara to denote defilements. Sankhara has a broader definition within the suttas- karmically whoelsome, unwhole or neutral dhammas.

As far as the practice goes there is nothing mentioned in the suttas or the commentaries about sankharas arising and being dispelled. This is more in line with the western freudian concepts of releasing of repressed psychological trauma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankhara" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Bhangha' is another term- possibly with new usage with the tradition. It is said to denote a point where all body sensations disappear. Previously in the commentaries bhanga nana (knowledge of dissolution) is when everything seems to be dissolving. These two are different. I suspect that bhanga may occur in two instances- one is when samadhi is developed to a great degree and the mind cannot direct itself towards body sensations (this naturally happens in samatha) and focuses internally on the mind away from body sensations. Or it happens when there is stream entry.

I have seen many people after practicing Goenka. For some the outcome has been merely samatha (they go into jhana using the body scan). Others seem stuck in repetions of body scans which doesnt seem to progress far from that point onwards. Others have reaped the full benefit and gone all the way to stream entry following the traditional progress of insight.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The main limitation I see with the body scan method is the scanning itself. I feel it tends to give rise to more samatha than vipassana. For example lets imagine focusing a flashlight in a dark room, wich has a stream of flowing water down the middle. if we focus on just one spot things might look prety constant, but there will be some change visible as the water flows past (samatha). if we focus up and down this stream we will be able to see the ripples and eddies in the stream much better and sense impermanence much better (body scan). if we switch the flash light on and off and focus on different parts of the stream and even the room we would be able to see the impermanence at it's best. this would offer the best chance of letting go of all phenomena after seeing it's true nature, and not just the body, which is the purpose of vipassana. You will find that traditions that do the last form of vipassana are all confident about talking about attainment- ie -stream entry.

I believe that Goenka has done a great service to the world by making vipassana very popular and bringing it to many. Many people have benefitted from it. But I think there are areas which can be improved upon. I hope I wont be penalized for expressing my honest opinion.

with metta
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Jechbi
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by Jechbi »

Hello Rowyourboat,
rowyourboat wrote:I hope I wont be penalized for expressing my honest opinion.
I hope everyone feels free to express their honest opinions as you have, in a helpful, informative way. The Goenka-taught retreats are not going to be everyone's cup of tea. There are far more experienced meditators out there that me, but I'd like to share a few thoughts in response to what you have offered.

With regard to vedana, my understanding is that Mr. Goenka describes it in connection with physical sensations in the body because those sensations are the object of this technique. But I don't have the impression that we're meant to understand that vedana only means sensations in the body and nothing else. See here.
rowyourboat wrote:another is his usage of the term sankhara to denote defilements. Sankhara has a broader definition within the suttas- karmically whoelsome, unwhole or neutral dhammas.
I agree with you that the term "sankhara" as presented in the Goenka discourses can easily be misunderstood, but Mr. Goenka seems to emphasize more that it refers to our "habit patterns," our habitual reactions stemming from ignorance.
rowyourboat wrote:As far as the practice goes there is nothing mentioned in the suttas or the commentaries about sankharas arising and being dispelled. This is more in line with the western freudian concepts of releasing of repressed psychological trauma.
I don't think Mr. Goenka encourages any effort at "dispelling" sankharas in some active, deliberate way. Rather, reactions come up seemingly coupled with sensations, and instead of compounding the reaction or building upon it, the idea is to observe it and understand it's nature, which is to arise and then pass way. It is anicca.

This is related to a point that Ven. Dhammanando made brilliantly in this thread, namely, that it is not self that breaks these links between vedana and sankhara:
Dhammanando wrote:The normal tendency of pleasant objects to generate attachment and unpleasant ones to generate aversion can be broken. But it is not 'we' who do it (i.e. it can't be done in any controlled, deliberative fashion, with a supposed self directing affairs), but rather, it's the effect of developing paññā that makes it possible.
:namaste:

A final minor point:
rowyourboat wrote:'Bhangha' is another term- possibly with new usage with the tradition. It is said to denote a point where all body sensations disappear.
I don't think that's what Bhangha means at all. It's not the point at which body sensations disappear, and I don't think that's ever taught in any discourse by Mr. Goenka (but I won't mind being corrected if I'm wrong).

I have seen a fair amount of criticism of (as well as praise for) the technique as taught by Mr. Goenka, and I encourage anyone to decide for themselves. Different strokes for different folks. For me personally, Mr. Goenka's approach has been very helpful.

Metta
:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
rowyourboat
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Jechbi,

From what I have heard Goenka considers vedana synonymous with bodily sensations as he says that terms like 'somanasa' are used for mental pleasantness in the suttas. I listend to his entire satipatthana course tapes and I must say I found it hard going due to the way some terms were used. According to the former understanding, this also means that any mental unpleasantness or pleasantness must create bodily sensations- this is something I understood from some ardent Goenka fans. But I believe that the buddha asked us to see 'mind in mind' and not 'mind in the body'.

Any single method has some overlap onto other foundations of mindfulness. However for full comprehension (=full letting go in the buddhas dispensation) of any foundation we must dvelve deeply into that particular foundation because each of those foundations have special meaning in attaining nibbana. There is a sutta which says that a 'sekha'/trainee is someone who has partially practiced the four foundations and an arahanth is someone who has fully practiced the four foundations. As we know becoming enlightened is not easy and it would be detrimental for us to be attached to one technique for decades if it has not taken us right to the top. A wise monk told me that we should try any method wholeheartedly for 2 years as there is no one method which does it all for everyone- everyone is different. My brightest yogi, a woman who was a Goenka practitioner for many years-which probably got her to stream entry (again using the anonymity of this forum). But I introduced the jhanas to her and she said that she always felt that this was something which was missing in her practice. Later she said that the Goenka practice had helped her reduce cravings and aversions and so did not want to practice any further vedananupassana, to which I acceeded. Later when she erradicated all sensual craving, said that ashubha (foulness of the body) and metta (loving kindness) helped her the most in getting rid of craving and aversion. I am sharing this live example because this was one woman who was any meditation instructor's dream as her faculties were incredible. You could practically ask her to do anything and she could get results and progress out of it. So her part of the practice was 100% -the only thing which was holding her back would have been the limitations of the method she used (it is often the other way around). She is now attaining arupa jhana and nirodhasamapatti. I have seen how others have been helped by the goenka method- to various degrees. But I believe the problem is the buddha never taught only one type of meditation in the satipattana- and if anyone could have taken a person upto enlightenment using one meditation, it was the buddha. He taught various types as it takes various types- and the reason is that all meditations in the satipatthana aim at letting go- they all end with 'nacakinci loke upadiyati' not clining to anything in the world- we have different types of clinging and the various methods in the satipatthana are used to overcome them all one by one. so it just helps to do them all eventually. so I would say not to limit yourself just to Goenka but try them all, giving them enough time, eventually. I hope to go on a Goenka retreat myself one day.

with metta
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Brizzy

Re: Goenka technique

Post by Brizzy »

Apparently, we cannot create a sensation.........................

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=jX7 ... &q&f=false

I just jabbed a pen in my eye........my friend said "why the bloody hell, did you do that"? :cookoo: .......... my reply................"I did'nt do it"! :sage:

:smile:
fijiNut
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by fijiNut »

I have to break my silence in regards to to topic as I thought it would only be fair to balance out the views on this thread. I only share this because those who have doubts in regards to progress on the path of Dhamma in this tradition.

My first ever retreat was in the Goenka tradition in 2008 in New Zealand, and I still practice the technique, along with mindfulness of breathing and loving kindness meditation. Prior to that , I knew nothing about meditation and could not even sit for 10 minutes.

On the 2nd day, quite strong samadhi, I didn't want to get up from meditation.
By the end of the 3rd day, the mind settled into jhana, they were right, its better than sex! With total loss of body sensations,hit-me-with-a-stick, I still won't feel it, for at least an hour.
On the 4th day we changed to the scanning , the mind experienced dissolution of the body, nothing but rapid arising and passing away for 1 hour sitting, this scared me a little. The teacher just gave calm advice to just continue meditating.
Day 5th onwards till day 10, there was complete reversal; major defilements hit the mind, lust, aversion, the whole lot.

So call it beginner's luck, but subsequent retreats later, there hasn't been as much progress as the first retreat (maybe too much craving for results on my side).

So does this 'technique' work?
In my experience, and I am only speculating here- it could be the limitation of the technique(it's possible), or it could be the limitation of the parami of the practictioner, or it could be just a matter of time and ripening of kamma....

Eitherway, I am very grateful to have taken my first retreat in this tradition, and I hope those who have 10 days to spare give this technique a fair go.
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Ben
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by Ben »

Great report, FijiNut!
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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upekkha
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by upekkha »

Great report Fijinut!

If you read the Progress of Insight I believe you will see that your experiences line up quite nicely and clearly with the ancient maps.

After the stage of "Knowledge of Arising and Passing away" (What you report experiencing on day 4), there are stages which are rightly named (Knowledge of) Dissolution, misery, disgust, desire for deliverenace and re-observation (toughest one yet), before one reaches the 'Knowledge of Equanimity regarding formations' stage. (After crossing the 4th nyana you will probably begin to feel a strong pull towards spiritual practice, desire to renounce to world and dedicate more and more time to spritual practice, feeling that the world is unsatisfactory.. these have been reported by many many meditators crossing the infamous 4th nyana - do you find this in your own experience?)

In my own experience of practicing both body-scanning as well as other Vipassana techniques intensly, body-scanning becomes less effective after the 4th Nyana (Arising and Passing away) in those stages called 'Dukkha Nyanas' since one needs to objectify many mental objects as well as physical ones, and favouring body formations over mental formations seems to cause a stagnation.
Since all formations are anatta, you cannot 'stop' wanting to progress, or thinking about progress, or wanting some other experience, these are just mental phenomena arising on their own and are as 'holy' as any other sensation or vibration. One needs to see through them, objectify them, in order to continue making progress. One cannot fight craving, craving needs to be seen for what it is. Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta. You do not create craving, craving arises in a causal manner as any other mind/body formation.
I suggest trying some Mahasi noting, you'd be surprised how such a simple technique can bring about profound progress in short time (even during daily life). At least that's what I found in my own experience.

Enjoy!
rowyourboat
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Fijinut

Thanks for reporting back. I hope you don't mind me asking - did you gain an understanding of anatta in your experience?

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fijiNut
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by fijiNut »

ryb,
If that is a roundabout way to ask about attainments, I can honestly say.. no. Nothing to proclaim. :tongue:

Just to say that there were these states of mind that was experienced, and just about it.
I would be even sceptical to say the experience entailed anything special. I can't be sure.

But taking the results of practice out of context of just a 10 day retreat into daily life, the mind is very cautious about breaking sila, the discursive mind calms down extremely quickly, and also confidence in the Path is quite strong, one feels one can dedicate one's whole life to this.
vitellius
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by vitellius »

rowyourboat wrote:'Bhangha' is another term- possibly with new usage with the tradition. It is said to denote a point where all body sensations disappear. Previously in the commentaries bhanga nana (knowledge of dissolution) is when everything seems to be dissolving. These two are different. I suspect that bhanga may occur in two instances- one is when samadhi is developed to a great degree and the mind cannot direct itself towards body sensations (this naturally happens in samatha) and focuses internally on the mind away from body sensations. Or it happens when there is stream entry.
Hi rowyourboat, I have also came to conclusion that "bhanga" in Goenka's tradition is most probably is a (near-)jhana state.
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Ben
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by Ben »

rowyourboat wrote:'Bhangha' is another term- possibly with new usage with the tradition. It is said to denote a point where all body sensations disappear.
No, that is not correct. The description of Bhanga within the tradition is completely consistent with the commentarial explanation. Goenkaji goes into considerable detail and explains that sensations do not disappear. As for 'new usage', Goenkaji has been describing bhanga-nana since I have been involved in 1985. And before that, I have a transcript and audio file of U Ba Khin saying much the same thing in 1969. And before that, we can look at the writings of Ledi Sayadaw, so its been around for awhile.
Oleksandr wrote: Hi rowyourboat, I have also came to conclusion that "bhanga" in Goenka's tradition is most probably is a (near-)jhana state.
That is not correct either. One apprehends bhangha from practicing vipassana. Within this tradition, vipassana is not practiced only after the attainment of jhana. It would be the exception rather than the rule that practitioners within this tradition experience bhanga from the basis of jhana. Bhanga and jhana are two very different states.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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vitellius
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by vitellius »

Hello Ben,

I understand that in Goenka tradition "bhanga" is not associated with jhanas. It is my personal opinion that state called "bhanga" by S.N. Goenka and his students is the same or near that what is called "jhana" in some other traditions.

Anyway, may be you can recommend texts or dhammatalks where "bhanga" is described in details (more or less) by S.N. Goenka or somebody else from his tradition? Then I would be able to elaborate on this topic or to correct my opinion.
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Ben
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by Ben »

Hi Oleksandr,
As a matter of interest, what is your opinion based on?
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Brizzy

Re: Goenka technique

Post by Brizzy »

Ben wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:'Bhangha' is another term- possibly with new usage with the tradition. It is said to denote a point where all body sensations disappear.
No, that is not correct. The description of Bhanga within the tradition is completely consistent with the commentarial explanation. Goenkaji goes into considerable detail and explains that sensations do not disappear. As for 'new usage', Goenkaji has been describing bhanga-nana since I have been involved in 1985. And before that, I have a transcript and audio file of U Ba Khin saying much the same thing in 1969. And before that, we can look at the writings of Ledi Sayadaw, so its been around for awhile.
Oleksandr wrote: Hi rowyourboat, I have also came to conclusion that "bhanga" in Goenka's tradition is most probably is a (near-)jhana state.
That is not correct either. One apprehends bhangha from practicing vipassana. Within this tradition, vipassana is not practiced only after the attainment of jhana. It would be the exception rather than the rule that practitioners within this tradition experience bhanga from the basis of jhana. Bhanga and jhana are two very different states.
kind regards

Ben
You say "bhanga" has been around for quite a while (at least 100 years). Was it around at the Buddha's time and did the Buddha elaborate on it?

Is "practicing" vipassana possible?

You say Bhanga and jhana are two very different states, is this from personal experience?

:smile:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Goenka technique

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
Is "practicing" vipassana possible?
Cultivating the conditions that give rise to insight is possible.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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