Why there is no re-linking consciousness

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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:33 pm

Element, clw_uk,
Element wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:So the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are based on misinterpretations of the Buddha's teaching which have persisted for over 2000 years?

Mike

Buddha said his teaching would last 500 years. Thus, your 2,000 year number is spot on. Fortunately, the true Dhamma rebirthed last century.

Thank you for clarifying your opinions.

Personally, I think I'll stick to my opinion, and the opinions of my teachers, for now...

Metta
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby clw_uk » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:39 pm

Thats fine to stick with what your teachers teach, i wasnt trying to tell you what you should or shouldnt believe :smile: I do really mean that, sorry if it came accross that way.

Just investigate for yourself, dont accept something first hand because it is written or because someone tells you it is a certain way or because its just traditional.


With Metta friend

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“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby Element » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:43 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Personally, I think I'll stick to my opinion, and the opinions of my teachers, for now...

"My" is considered problematic in Buddhism. I'll stick to what the Buddha taught.

Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork.

MN 22
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:52 pm

Element wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Personally, I think I'll stick to my opinion, and the opinions of my teachers, for now...

"My" is considered problematic in Buddhism. I'll stick to what the Buddha taught.
[/quote]
I agree. :popcorn:

clw_uk. I agree that we have to investigate for ourselves. That is exactly what I do. I just reach different conclusions, which happen to be closer to the standard Theravada view...

Be well,
Mike
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby clw_uk » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:53 pm

I agree that we have to investigate for ourselves. That is exactly what I do.


:namaste:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby Element » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:55 pm

mikenz66 wrote:I agree that we have to investigate for ourselves.

Mike

If you are referring to insight meditation, I agree also.

E
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby nathan » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:02 pm

'I'm' standing by 'my' ignorance, until 'I' either kick the habit or 'my' ignorance rebirths 'me'. :jumping:
This is kind of a snark hunt either way isn't it? Considering? The ongoing ignorance pertains to all the aggregates, trying to locate it as confined in some way within any one of these conditions of ongoing ignorance would be a fools errand, no?
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby Element » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:02 am

nathan wrote:The ongoing ignorance pertains to all the aggregates...

Nathan

I am not sure what you are pointing to. When the Buddha gained enlightenment, he was still composed of aggregates however no ignorance at all.

Ignorance is actually something completely divorced from and unconnected to the aggregates.

Whilst ignorance is found in one of the aggregates, there can be aggregates without ignorance.

Regards

Element
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby nathan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:38 am

Element wrote:
nathan wrote:The ongoing ignorance pertains to all the aggregates...

Nathan

I am not sure what you are pointing to.
...Regards

Element
SN 12.35 Avijjapaccaya Sutta From Ignorance as a Requisite Condition Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I'm getting at ignorance is the root cause of all the aggregates. Ignorance is what continues ongoing. Bondage or freedom. That a consciousness persists in re-arising or clings from one fabrication to the next, one body to the next, is all secondary.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby Element » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:58 am

nathan wrote:I'm getting at ignorance is the root cause of all the aggregates.

Nathan

This text is about dependent origination. It is about how the aggregates become conditioned or affected by ignorance and thus give rise to dukkha.

It is not about the meta-physical creation of the five aggregates.

Buddha said when the mind has the hindrance of sensual desire, it is like clear water stained with coloured ink.

Buddha said when the mind has the hindrance of ill will, it is like clear water boiling.

The same. When ignorance conditions consciousness with formations, consciousness becomes unclear.

Also. Please keep in mind the Buddha said his teaching is to be verified by each wise person for themselves.

Best wishes

Element
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby nathan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:44 am

Element wrote:
nathan wrote:I'm getting at ignorance is the root cause of all the aggregates.

Nathan

"This text is about dependent origination."

"Best wishes

Element"
Yup. It is. Be well and happy Element. :namaste:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby Mind Trip » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:11 pm

Hi, I don't know if coinciousness is the right word to describe if there's something individual there remains after death, well, all that I can see it that some beings are inclined to do certain things and some other things. If there's no re-linking of conciousness there is somewhere that are the "storage" of "personal kamma"? What the Buddha means with that:

"He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma."

?

Cya Thanks.
"In whom there exists
no provocation,
& for whom becoming & non-becoming
are overcome,
he is one — beyond fear,
blissful,
without grief,
whom the devas can't see."
Bhaddiya Kaligodha Sutta
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby clw_uk » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:26 pm

If there's no re-linking of conciousness there is somewhere that are the "storage" of "personal kamma"?


I dont think it really matters, i dont find it that important of a question as its to speculative




:anjali:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby Mind Trip » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:08 pm

clw_uk wrote:
If there's no re-linking of conciousness there is somewhere that are the "storage" of "personal kamma"?


I dont think it really matters, i dont find it that important of a question as its to speculative

:anjali:


Well, it don't matter that much for me too, but that isn't the discussion of this topic?

It is really very speculative, but as I see in this discussion, we are gathering information in the sutras and trying to get some understanding about the subject.

We all see that the human beings have some strong unconscious tendencies, I see that a major part of our personalities are formed in contact with experiences with the external world. But we can see that people living in the same places, like our home, with similar worldly experiences and we react in various different ways, the kamma explained by the Buddha have everything to do with those reactions I am right?

So the question of the re-linking of conscious after death, or every explain of rebirth are highly speculative but we can see those things in the here in now and reflect about how this reactions occours, what their nature and how to dissipate them.

Metta.
"In whom there exists
no provocation,
& for whom becoming & non-becoming
are overcome,
he is one — beyond fear,
blissful,
without grief,
whom the devas can't see."
Bhaddiya Kaligodha Sutta
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby nathan » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:06 pm

I guide my feet to the path because every step is into the unknown.
The path is a certain way through.
The rest is a certain known.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Why there is no re-linking consciousness

Postby clw_uk » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:11 pm

So the question of the re-linking of conscious after death, or every explain of rebirth are highly speculative but we can see those things in the here in now and reflect about how this reactions occours, what their nature and how to dissipate them.

Metta.



Rebirth in this life is all thats really important to focus on in my view, thats enough anything else is just extra



:anjali:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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