Greetings All,
My teacher follows, for the most part, the Thai Forest Tradition (being himself a student of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu). However, every once in awhile he will throw something out there that doesn't quite jibe with my understanding of the Dhamma in the context of Theravada doctrine. The other night during a course he was teaching on Mindfulness of Death he had us all sit and practice non-doing. I believe this was intended to allow us to experience the miracle of the present and to appreciate being alive but I experienced strong resistance and aversion to it. I feel somewhat ashamed to even be writing this as I feel as though I'm slighting a my teacher but the whole thing just seemed kind of New Age-y. Anyway, I would just like to get some thoughts on how the concept or practice of Non-Doing might be received and/or practiced in a Theravadin context.
Metta,
Mike
Non-Doing
- Khalil Bodhi
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Non-Doing
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183
The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
My Practice Blog:
http://khalilbodhi.wordpress.com
-Dhp. 183
The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
My Practice Blog:
http://khalilbodhi.wordpress.com
Re: Non-Doing
Have you discussed your feelings with your teacher?Khalil Bodhi wrote:Greetings All,
My teacher follows, for the most part, the Thai Forest Tradition (being himself a student of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu). However, every once in awhile he will throw something out there that doesn't quite jibe with my understanding of the Dhamma in the context of Theravada doctrine. The other night during a course he was teaching on Mindfulness of Death he had us all sit and practice non-doing. I believe this was intended to allow us to experience the miracle of the present and to appreciate being alive but I experienced strong resistance and aversion to it. I feel somewhat ashamed to even be writing this as I feel as though I'm slighting a my teacher but the whole thing just seemed kind of New Age-y. Anyway, I would just like to get some thoughts on how the concept or practice of Non-Doing might be received and/or practiced in a Theravadin context.
Metta,
Mike
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Non-Doing
I like the concept of doer-less doing from Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:
Please make it a habit to regularly contemplate what is worth having and what is worth being; what is there that once possessed or once become, will not cause us Dukkha. When we discover the truth that there is absolutely nothing that is worthy of the feelings of having or being, then we become even-minded towards all things. Whatever action we perform, be it arranging, having, collecting, using or whatever, we just do what needs to be done. So don't let the mind have or become! Keep in mind the principle of doerless doing:
The doing is done but no doer is there.
The path has been walked but no walker is there.
This verse refers to the arahant, the one who has practiced Dhamma, or who has walked the Noble Path to its very end and who has reached Nibbana, but with no walker and no practicer to be found.
The principle of doerless doing must be taken up and utilized in our daily lives. Whether we're eating, sitting, laying down, standing, walking, using, seeking, whatever we are doing we must have enough truth-discerning awareness to prevent the arising of the feeling of 'I' - the feeling that 'I' am the doer, 'I" am the eater, the walker, the sitter, the sleeper or the user. We must make the mind constantly empty of ego, so that emptiness is the natural state and we abide with the awareness that there is nothing worth having or being.
I think it equates to non-doing.
Please make it a habit to regularly contemplate what is worth having and what is worth being; what is there that once possessed or once become, will not cause us Dukkha. When we discover the truth that there is absolutely nothing that is worthy of the feelings of having or being, then we become even-minded towards all things. Whatever action we perform, be it arranging, having, collecting, using or whatever, we just do what needs to be done. So don't let the mind have or become! Keep in mind the principle of doerless doing:
The doing is done but no doer is there.
The path has been walked but no walker is there.
This verse refers to the arahant, the one who has practiced Dhamma, or who has walked the Noble Path to its very end and who has reached Nibbana, but with no walker and no practicer to be found.
The principle of doerless doing must be taken up and utilized in our daily lives. Whether we're eating, sitting, laying down, standing, walking, using, seeking, whatever we are doing we must have enough truth-discerning awareness to prevent the arising of the feeling of 'I' - the feeling that 'I' am the doer, 'I" am the eater, the walker, the sitter, the sleeper or the user. We must make the mind constantly empty of ego, so that emptiness is the natural state and we abide with the awareness that there is nothing worth having or being.
I think it equates to non-doing.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
- Khalil Bodhi
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Re: Non-Doing
BBB,
Not yet and I don't know if I should. I guess I'm conflicted about my own motives. Is it a case of the ego wanting to be right and know more or was it something other than that? This is a teacher I've known for years now and he's generally spot on about things. I think maybe I let aversion get the better of me but I was also interested to hear if anyone had encountered this idea of Non-Doing outside of Zen circles. Mettaya.
Mike
Not yet and I don't know if I should. I guess I'm conflicted about my own motives. Is it a case of the ego wanting to be right and know more or was it something other than that? This is a teacher I've known for years now and he's generally spot on about things. I think maybe I let aversion get the better of me but I was also interested to hear if anyone had encountered this idea of Non-Doing outside of Zen circles. Mettaya.
Mike
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183
The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
My Practice Blog:
http://khalilbodhi.wordpress.com
-Dhp. 183
The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
My Practice Blog:
http://khalilbodhi.wordpress.com
Re: Non-Doing
Did he instruct you just to sit and thats it? If he did it sounds simillar to a Zen practice.
There is a meditation practice taught in the Thai Forest Tradition where you just sit in silent present moment awareness, this is close to non-doing meditation but you are mindful not to think about what is happening or to look to past of future. Its usually taught as a foundation practice to strenghten mindfulness and stop the mind wandering.
There is a meditation practice taught in the Thai Forest Tradition where you just sit in silent present moment awareness, this is close to non-doing meditation but you are mindful not to think about what is happening or to look to past of future. Its usually taught as a foundation practice to strenghten mindfulness and stop the mind wandering.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Non-Doing
From what i understand it is an advanced form of meditation used only after one has gained sufficient concentration to be aware of phenomenon that arises without being caught up in them. No theme is used to keep you anchored in the moment such as the breath is used in anapanasati. I could be wrong though.clw_uk wrote:Did he instruct you just to sit and thats it? If he did it sounds simillar to a Zen practice.
There is a meditation practice taught in the Thai Forest Tradition where you just sit in silent present moment awareness, this is close to non-doing meditation but you are mindful not to think about what is happening or to look to past of future. Its usually taught as a foundation practice to strenghten mindfulness and stop the mind wandering.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Non-Doing
Its the first chapter of teachings in "Mindfulness, bliss and beyond" so I assume its basic
The basic concept is that meditators tend to think about what is happening "Is this jhana" and then lose concentration, or think about past or future "how much longer" "Im going to do this later", so you learn to abandon these thoughts and focus on the moment, then procede to breath.
The basic concept is that meditators tend to think about what is happening "Is this jhana" and then lose concentration, or think about past or future "how much longer" "Im going to do this later", so you learn to abandon these thoughts and focus on the moment, then procede to breath.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Non-Doing
It is described as an advanced form of meditation by Larry Rosenberg who studied under Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and is the author of Breath by Breath where he has a whole chapter on this form of meditation in his book. So im not sure where that leaves us?clw_uk wrote:Its the first chapter of teachings in "Mindfulness, bliss and beyond" so I assume its basic
The basic concept is that meditators tend to think about what is happening "Is this jhana" and then lose concentration, or think about past or future "how much longer" "Im going to do this later", so you learn to abandon these thoughts and focus on the moment, then procede to breath.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Non-Doing
Quite confused, ive been practising it lately and havent found it massively difficult and find it does help with my mindfulness when i switch to breath. From my practice i certainaly wouldnt call it advanced
Only way round it i can see is that they both have the same name but different techniques somehow.
Only way round it i can see is that they both have the same name but different techniques somehow.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Non-Doing
Choiceless awareness
Choiceless awareness is a type of meditation which arises most prominently from the Theravadan tradition (sometimes also called the Forest tradition) of Buddhism. It is characterized by being aware of whatever is present without choice or preference. IT IS OFTEN THE RESULT OF MATURE PROGRESSION OF PRACTICE. This practice is intended to assist the practitioner in seeing the fundamental insights of Buddhism, which include, anatta, anicca and dukkha (no permanent self, no permanent mind and unsatisfactoriness of life). The term was widely used by Krishnamurti, and is used by Chogyam Trungpa to describe the experience of sunyata in his book Illusion's Game: The Life and Teaching of Naropa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choiceless_awareness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Choiceless awareness is a type of meditation which arises most prominently from the Theravadan tradition (sometimes also called the Forest tradition) of Buddhism. It is characterized by being aware of whatever is present without choice or preference. IT IS OFTEN THE RESULT OF MATURE PROGRESSION OF PRACTICE. This practice is intended to assist the practitioner in seeing the fundamental insights of Buddhism, which include, anatta, anicca and dukkha (no permanent self, no permanent mind and unsatisfactoriness of life). The term was widely used by Krishnamurti, and is used by Chogyam Trungpa to describe the experience of sunyata in his book Illusion's Game: The Life and Teaching of Naropa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choiceless_awareness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Non-Doing
There must be a difference between the two, i dont think ajahn bram would give advanced meditation teachings to beginners
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- Prasadachitta
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Re: Non-Doing
Here is a very good ebook which describes the practice of a Forest monk I have respect for. I have posted it before but it is relevant here.
Metta
Gabriel
http://www.abhayagiri.org/index.php/main/book/138/
Metta
Gabriel
http://www.abhayagiri.org/index.php/main/book/138/
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
- Khalil Bodhi
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Re: Non-Doing
Gabriel,
Excellent link! Thank you much, this is certainly a way into understanding what my teacher may have been pointing to.
Metta,
Mike
Excellent link! Thank you much, this is certainly a way into understanding what my teacher may have been pointing to.
Metta,
Mike
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183
The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
My Practice Blog:
http://khalilbodhi.wordpress.com
-Dhp. 183
The Stoic Buddhist: https://www.quora.com/q/dwxmcndlgmobmeu ... pOR2p0uAdH
My Practice Blog:
http://khalilbodhi.wordpress.com
Re: Non-Doing
clw_uk,clw_uk wrote:There must be a difference between the two, i dont think ajahn bram would give advanced meditation teachings to beginners
My recollection of that part of Ajahn Brahm's book was that this was a technique that could be used when experiencing difficulties in the more routine methods. Constantly "doing" is a huge struggle for me and that point was really driven home when I tried the non-doing approach. It was extremely useful as a counter-point to my regular practice which includes way too much "doer" and nowhere near enough "knower".
Regards: AdvaitaJ
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains. Li Bai
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains. Li Bai
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Re: Non-Doing
A comment:
Choiceless awareness is a term coined by J. Krishnamurti and adopted and adapted by American vipassana teachers such as Jack Kornfeild and Joseph Goldstein.Choiceless awareness is a type of meditation which arises most prominently from the Theravadan tradition (sometimes also called the Forest tradition) of Buddhism
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723