How does Upadana condition Bhava?

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How does Upadana condition Bhava?

Postby OcTavO » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:56 pm

Upadana paccaya bhavo --> Bhava paccaya jati
(Clinging conditions becoming --> Becoming conditions birth)

Can someone please clue me in as the suggested mechanisms by which Upadana conditions Bhava? Every time I reflect on D.O. I hit a wall at this point. It seems like I'm perhaps missing a cultural viewpoint link that was present in the Buddha's time but not ours? Or I'm missing a solid interpretation of Bhava. Everything I come across seems intentionally vague.
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Re: How does Upadana condition Bhava?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:16 pm

OcTavO wrote:Upadana paccaya bhavo --> Bhava paccaya jati
(Clinging conditions becoming --> Becoming conditions birth)

Can someone please clue me in as the suggested mechanisms by which Upadana conditions Bhava? Every time I reflect on D.O. I hit a wall at this point. It seems like I'm perhaps missing a cultural viewpoint link that was present in the Buddha's time but not ours? Or I'm missing a solid interpretation of Bhava. Everything I come across seems intentionally vague.


When you keep clinging to a certain idea, you pursue it and in that pursuit you become someone.

IE, you cling to the idea of "status", "I want to be esteemed by others". So you pursue it and become famous person with lots of status. Thus clinging was an important condition for continuous effort to obtain it. IMHO.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: How does Upadana condition Bhava?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:33 pm

OcTavO wrote:Upadana paccaya bhavo --> Bhava paccaya jati
(Clinging conditions becoming --> Becoming conditions birth)

Can someone please clue me in as the suggested mechanisms by which Upadana conditions Bhava? Every time I reflect on D.O. I hit a wall at this point. It seems like I'm perhaps missing a cultural viewpoint link that was present in the Buddha's time but not ours? Or I'm missing a solid interpretation of Bhava. Everything I come across seems intentionally vague.
The most fundamental clinging (upādāna) in my eyes is the clinging to the belief in a self (attavāda). This clinging is like a hidden parisite on experience, because it leads to personality-view (sakkāya-ditthi), the view that "I am in essence somebody". Because of that clinging there arises the view that in every experience there is a subject experiencing. This supposed subject is nothing but one ore more of the five clinging-aggregates. When there is clinging to the aggregates they become a personality. This is how clinging leads to becoming or being, namely of that personality. It leads to that very identification where the view arises that the personality is mine, I am this, this is my self. So something which actually is not-self became a "self" because of clinging.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.

:anjali:
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Re: How does Upadana condition Bhava?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:46 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
OcTavO wrote:Upadana paccaya bhavo --> Bhava paccaya jati
(Clinging conditions becoming --> Becoming conditions birth)

Can someone please clue me in as the suggested mechanisms by which Upadana conditions Bhava? Every time I reflect on D.O. I hit a wall at this point. It seems like I'm perhaps missing a cultural viewpoint link that was present in the Buddha's time but not ours? Or I'm missing a solid interpretation of Bhava. Everything I come across seems intentionally vague.
The most fundamental clinging (upādāna) in my eyes is the clinging to the belief in a self (attavāda). This clinging is like a hidden parisite on experience, because it leads to personality-view (sakkāya-ditthi), the view that "I am in essence somebody". Because of that clinging there arises the view that in every experience there is a subject experiencing. This supposed subject is nothing but one ore more of the five clinging-aggregates. When there is clinging to the aggregates they become a personality. This is how clinging leads to becoming or being, namely of that personality. It leads to that very identification where the view arises that the personality is mine, I am this, this is my self. So something which actually is not-self became a "self" because of clinging.

best wishes, acinteyyo




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Re: How does Upadana condition Bhava?

Postby OcTavO » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:16 pm

acinteyyo wrote:The most fundamental clinging (upādāna) in my eyes is the clinging to the belief in a self (attavāda). This clinging is like a hidden parisite on experience, because it leads to personality-view (sakkāya-ditthi), the view that "I am in essence somebody". Because of that clinging there arises the view that in every experience there is a subject experiencing. This supposed subject is nothing but one ore more of the five clinging-aggregates. When there is clinging to the aggregates they become a personality. This is how clinging leads to becoming or being, namely of that personality. It leads to that very identification where the view arises that the personality is mine, I am this, this is my self. So something which actually is not-self became a "self" because of clinging.


Thank you acinteyyo, this is a wonderfully succinct description that definitely makes things clearer for me. :bow:

So is "Bhava" just translatable as "Becoming" or is it more like "formation of concepts"?
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Re: How does Upadana condition Bhava?

Postby Sobeh » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:48 pm

Following Nanavira Thera, I suggest seeing paticcasamuppada as "in fact, a structural principle (formally stated in the first Sutta passage at the head of this Note), and not one or another specific chain of sankhārā."
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Re: How does Upadana condition Bhava?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:19 pm

Greetings OcTavO,

OcTavO wrote:So is "Bhava" just translatable as "Becoming" or is it more like "formation of concepts"?

Becoming is a good one-word translation... it's the best I've seen.

Some may translate it as "existence" but this is only a satisfactory translation if you know what the Buddha meant it was to exist as a "being". In that regard, see this sutta.

SN 23.2: Satta Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Whilst using the term 'satta' instead of 'bhava', this sutta actually does a very good job of answering your original question and provide some textual framework for what acinteyyo said. In particular, this bit...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'


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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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Re: How does Upadana condition Bhava?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:28 pm

OcTavO wrote:So is "Bhava" just translatable as "Becoming" or is it more like "formation of concepts"?

Bhava means "becoming, form of (re-)birth, (state of) existence, a "life"" according to the pali dictionary.

I prefer "becoming" as well es "being" (to be), "to come into existence" in order to try to cover the different connotations.
retro's post points out very clear what is meant by "being" and I fully agree with what he said:
retrofuturist wrote:Becoming is a good one-word translation... it's the best I've seen.

rather less like "formation of concepts". bhava goes rather straight to the root of ones existence which is blindly taken for granted.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.

:anjali:
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