Nanavira.

[atulo]

There is a lot of Nanavira veneration going on here. Based upon what? Your belief - and this all you can have - that he was a streamwinner? Does being a streamwinner, assuming he was one but cannot prove, make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?

I can repeat only that: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 791#p73757" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tiltbillings]

There is a lot of Nanavira veneration going on here. Based upon what? Your belief - and this all you can have - that he was a streamwinner? Does being a streamwinner, assuming he was one but cannot prove, make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?

I can repeat only that: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 791#p73757" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is all well and goodthat you venerate him, but you cannot know he is a streamwinner, but whether he is or not, the questions still remain: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?


Also: And as long as I am here, there was an essay buy the good dead venerable about how to understand sabbe dhamma anatta. Would someone be kind enough to link that for me.

[Yundi]

I don't understand what you are getting at. Could you explain the relevance of this to Bhikkhu Bodhi's discussion?

Dear Mike

Bhikkhu Bodhi's view is the sankhara at the 2nd link are bodily intentions (cetana), verbal intentions & mental intentions, that is, kāyasañcetanāhetu, vacīsañcetanāhetu & manosañcetanāhetu.

Whereas Navira's view is the sankhara at the 2nd link are the kaya, vaci & citta sankhara, as defined in MN 44 as the breathing in & out, vitakka & vicara and perception & feeling.

In the Pali, cetana or intention occurs after perception & after contact (instead of before), as follows:

In dependence on the sensuality element there arises sensual perception; in dependence on the sensual perception there arises sensual intention; in dependence on the sensual intention there arises sensual desire; in dependence on the sensual desire there arises sensual passion; in dependence on the sensual passion there arises a sensual quest. Engaged in a sensual quest, the uninstructed worldling conducts himself wrongly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.

In dependence on the ill will element there arises perception of ill will...

In dependence on the cruelty element there arises perception of harming...

In dependence on the renunciation element there arises perception of renunciation...

In dependence on the non-ill will element there arises perception of non-ill will...

In dependence on the harmlessness element there arises perception of harmlessness. In dependence on the perception of harmlessness there arises intention of harmlessness; in dependence on intention of harmlessness there arises desire for harmlessness; in dependence on desire for harmlessness there arises passion for harmlessness; in dependence on passion for harmlessness there arises a sensual quest. Engaged in a quest for harmlessness, the instructed noble disciple conducts himself rightly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.

SN 14.12 (no link)

Again:

"And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world?

The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

Maha-satipatthana Sutta

Bhikkhu Bodhi is citing the Bhumija Sutta, where the terms happiness & suffering are used to desribe the last link of dependent origination or dependent cessation.

In other words, using SN 14.12 as a reference, the happiness & suffering referred to in the Bhumija Sutta is that which arises after a person conducts themself wrongly or rightly in three ways - with body, speech and mind.

This right & wrong conduct occurs after contact rather than before contact. For example, before there is the intention to kill or steal and killing or stealing itself, there must occur ignorance, sankhara, contact, feeling & perception. The perception "my enemy" or "riches & treasures". The intention to kill or steal occurs with craving (tanha) and the action (karma) of killing or stealing starts with becoming. The intention to kill or steal cannot arise without perception.

The kāyasañcetanāhetu, vacīsañcetanāhetu & manosañcetanāhetu Bhikkhu Bodhi asserts is the 2nd link in fact occurs between the 7th and 8th link, as shown in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta quoted above.

SN 14.12 clearly states intention occurs after perception and not before perception. MN 18 states perception occurs after contact & feeling and not before.

"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.

MN 18

Therefore, although Bhikkhu Bodhi's view is widely accepted in Buddhism, especially in the Commentary tradition, it does not refute Nanavira because the suttas define the 2nd link as the kaya, vaci & citta sankhara, which are defined as the breathing in & out, vitakka & vicara and perception & feeling in places, such as MN 44 and MN 118.

With metta

[mikenz66]

Hi Yundi,

I didn't take Bhikkhu Bodhi's argument to be based on the details of dependent origination.

Mike

[Yundi]

A Critical Examination of ~Naa.naviira Thera's "A Note on Pa.ticcasamuppaada" - Bhikkhu Bodhi

[tiltbillings]

There is something remarkably annoying about this Ven Bodhi vs Ven Nanavira business here, and the annoying aspect is coming primarily from the Nanavira-wallahs. Ven Bodhi, contrary to what has been implied here has questioned the commenatries. He is not slavish to them. The claim that Nanavira is a streamwinner carries no objective basis for Nanavira's position over Ven Bodhi's. It is a unprovable belief by those who hold to it.

If you guys are going to argue against Ven Bodhi's position, then do so based upon careful scholarship, not pious veneration.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

And as long as I am here, there was an essay buy the good dead venerable about how to understand sabbe dhamma anatta. Would someone be kind enough to link that for me.

I'm guessing you mean this - http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=71" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Tilt,

And as long as I am here, there was an essay buy the good dead venerable about how to understand sabbe dhamma anatta. Would someone be kind enough to link that for me.

I'm guessing you mean this - http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=71" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.

That is not it. There was a much longer essay, which was online and probably on the website linked, but - alas - no longer to be found. Vacchagota, the atta-wallah on the dead grey forum, referenced it as an argument against taking dhamma in sabbe dhamma anatta as refering to nibbana. I would like to see that essay again and get a bit of info from the Nanavira -wallahs about it.

[atulo]

Dear Tilt,

I think you are getting a bit carried away. My faith on Ven. Nanavira has a similar 'structure' as my faith on the Buddha. Then, try to question the Buddha.

I think now, that it is not good idea to discuss Ven. Nanavira and Ven. Bodhi together. That happened many times, and brought unpleasant feelings. The same was during Ven. Nanavira's time. He was respected and well treated by (probably) all western monks and also sinhalese monks, but only one western monk was not able to look into Ven. Nanvira's eyes, and that was Ven. Nyanaponika: he openly expressed his disagreements with Ven. Nanavira. And Ven. Bodhi is following his teacher's path. Orthodox tradition and Ven. Nanavira are different things, and it is pointless to try to find agreements. They have complitelly different perspective.

I wish you all the best in your practice, and I sincerely hope that you will realize Dhamma in this life time.

With warm regards.

[tiltbillings]

Dear Tilt,

I think you are getting a bit carried away. My faith on Ven. Nanavira has a similar 'structure' as my faith on the Buddha. Then, try to question the Buddha.

You are making my point here.

I think now, that it is not good idea to discuss Ven. Nanavira and Ven. Bodhi together.

I am not the one who brought them up together, but take a look at your remarks, which also make my point.

Interestingly, however, you keep ignoring my question to you: Does being a streamwinner make one unquestionably inerrant in all of one's proclamations about the Dhamma? Does it make one a good scholar?

[tiltbillings]

, but only one western monk was not able to look into Ven. Nanvira's eyes, and that was Ven. Nyanaponika:

And this is supposed to be literally true story? Told and witnessed by whom?

. And Ven. Bodhi is following his teacher's path. Orthodox tradition and Ven. Nanavira are different things, and it is pointless to try to find agreements. They have complitelly different perspective..

So, Nanavira claimed of himself that he was a streamwinner. Now, whatever he says after his supposed awakening is the truly true understanding of the Dhamma and others do not quite get it right? Is that the case?

Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira. And we can point to others. Why favor Nanavira over them? Are they all deluded, and the only one who is not is Nanavira?

[cooran]

Hello all,

My understanding is that Nanavira Thera committed suicide in 1965 (aged 45 years) due to having having painful amoebiasis and a nervous disorder. If this is incorrect in any way, please correct.

amoebiasis
Definition
Amoebiasis is an infection of the large intestines caused by Entamoeba histolytica, a single-celled parasite.

What is going on in the body?
The large intestine, or colon, is infected after cysts are eaten. The parasite can then invade the colon, causing it to become inflamed.

What are the signs and symptoms of the infection?
The illness may produce no symptoms at all, or may produce only very mild ones. The symptoms may be so vague, they are not noticed, and may include:
episodes of diarrhoea and constipation
flatulence, or excess gas
abdominal distress, which may include cramping abdominal pain
mucous and blood in the stool
fever

What are the causes and risks of the infection?
Direct transmission of amoebiasis occurs through contact with infected stool. The infection is also a sexually transmitted disease, particularly among male homosexuals. Fruits and vegetables can be contaminated when they are grown in soil fertilised by human stool, washed in polluted water, or prepared by someone who is infected.

Amoebiasis is more common and more severe in subtropical and tropical areas. It occurs more often when living conditions are crowded, sanitation is poor, and nutrition is inadequate.

What can be done to prevent the infection?
A person should eat only food that is unlikely to be contaminated, especially when traveling to tropical regions. This means keeping to food that is well cooked and water that is bottled. Practicing safer sex will also help prevent the spread of amoebiasis.

How is the infection diagnosed?
Amoebiasis is usually identified by examining the stool. Several samples may need to be tested. Antibody titre blood tests may also be ordered.

What are the long-term effects of the infection?
A very severe amoebiasis infection can lead to perforation or rupture of the colon. Rarely, the infection involves other organs in the body, such as the liver, brain, or lung.

What are the risks to others?
Someone who excretes cysts into his or her stool puts others at risk for amoebiasis. Careful hand-washing and good sanitation help prevent the spread of this infection.

What are the treatments for the infection?
Medications such as ioloquinol, paromomycin, and diloxanide are used to kill the parasites in the intestines. Other medications, such as metronidazole, may be used to kill the organisms that have invaded the tissue. Surgery may be needed for complications like perforation of the bowel.

What are the side effects of the treatments?
Side effects depend on the medication used. Metronidazole often causes nausea, vomiting, and diarrhoea. Surgery carries a risk of bleeding, infection, and allergic reaction to anaesthesia.

What happens after treatment for the infection?
Amoebiasis is usually cured with medication, and the person can go back to normal activities.

How is the infection monitored?
Stool samples are examined 1, 3, and 6 months after treatment to be sure the person is free of the parasite. Any new or worsening symptoms should be reported to the doctor.

Author: Danielle Zerr, MD
Reviewer: HealthAnswers Australia Medical Review Panel
Editor: Dr David Taylor, Chief Medical Officer HealthAnswers Australia

with metta
Chris

[Aloka]

Are they the treatments which were available in the place where he was living in the early 1960's ?

[acinteyyo]

Hi Chris,

Hello all,
My understanding is that Nanavira Thera committed suicide in 1965 (aged 45 years) due to having having painful amoebiasis and a nervous disorder.

Ñānavīra Thera's thoughts about commiting suicide:

I am sure that you are already well aware that the problems confronting me at the present time arise from my past amoebiasis and not from this more recent complaint of satyriasis (which has only aggravated the situation). The ravages of amoebiasis play havoc with the practice of mental concentration, and if I cannot practise mental concentration I have no further use for this life. The idea of suicide first occurred to me nearly two years ago, and since then I have watched it becoming more definite and more frequent. Against this background it was more or less inevitable that my present complaint, when it appeared, should offer itself as a suitable occasion and excuse for putting the idea of suicide into practice. Although I wrote to you in my last letter that I was oscillating between the extremes of disrobing and suicide, there is no doubt at all (barring accidents) which I should choose. For me at least, the more intelligent of these two courses of action is suicide; a return to lay life would be pure weakness, and in any case I should be miserable. (How should I get my living? I should have to marry a rich and no doubt hideous widow in order to keep going. Quite unthinkable. Or perhaps I should take up with some lady of easy virtue who would earn enough to support us both. But I believe that this sort of arrangement is not considered very respectable.)

Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira.

Hi tilt,
I would be curious to know what kind of differences you are talking about in Ven. Maha Boowa's understanding of the Dhamma compared to Ven. Nanavira?

best wishes, acinteyyo

[mikenz66]

Hi Acinteyyo,

Only streamwinner Nanavira gets it right? Maha Boowa claimed of himself that he was arahant and certainly his understanding of the Dhamma does not agree with Nanavira.

Hi tilt,
I would be curious to know what kind of differences you are talking about in Ven. Maha Boowa's understanding of the Dhamma compared to Ven. Nanavira?

I take this as simply a general point. I see no reason to take Ven Nanavira's opinions any more seriously than a multitude of other opinions from ancient and modern teachers and commentators.

We all have our own backgrounds, teachers, preferences, etc.. Personally, I read forums such as this because I'm interested in learning about how others view the Dhamma, but, to be blunt I simply ignore any claims that the poster (or the Bhikkhus and scholars marshalled in support of the poster's position) has proved that he/she knows The True Dhamma That The Buddha Taught, and those that prefer other interpretations are mistaken. In all such cases, one could pull out erudite commentary from all manner of competing sources that would sound just as convincing.

Not that I object to erudite arguments. They are highly entertaining, and sometimes very informative. I simply object to the assumption by some members that by such argumentation they have actually proved their opinions to be the only viable approach.

Mike