The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Theravāda in the 21st century - modern applications of ancient wisdom

Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Element » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:04 pm

clw_uk wrote:One problem I have though with the notion of Devas etc being purely psychological is the distinct presenation of them as actual living beings within the Suttas. I can see how they can be seen as both however.

A deva is a human being. However, like the Buddha, Mogallana and Devadata, some devas have some supernormal powers.

However, some of these devas with supernormal powers do not believe in the Buddha-Dhamma.

Like Christian angels, they believe in Godliness rather than vipassana truth.

Thus an angel prefers to teach humanity, for example, about eternal life with Jesus rather than the doctrine of impermanence.

They do this because they believe it is a more effective way to remedy suffering for those human beings.
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:20 pm

A deva is a human being.


Since when?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Element » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:Since when?

Since always. :alien:
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Ben » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:49 am

Element wrote:
clw_uk wrote:One problem I have though with the notion of Devas etc being purely psychological is the distinct presenation of them as actual living beings within the Suttas. I can see how they can be seen as both however.

A deva is a human being. However, like the Buddha, Mogallana and Devadata, some devas have some supernormal powers.

However, some of these devas with supernormal powers do not believe in the Buddha-Dhamma.

Like Christian angels, they believe in Godliness rather than vipassana truth.

Thus an angel prefers to teach humanity, for example, about eternal life with Jesus rather than the doctrine of impermanence.

They do this because they believe it is a more effective way to remedy suffering for those human beings.


Do you have any support for this?
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:09 am

ive read zen texts that explain the devas and ghosts etc in these sort of ways, for example one who is controled by their emotions, cravings etc is an animal since animals are controled similarily by instincts, one who hates themself is a preta and so on

so its not just a buddhadasa thing,
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:12 am

Element: A deva is a human being.
Element wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Since when?

Since always.


Okay, and your textual source for claiming that devas are human beings is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Element » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:13 am

Ben wrote:Do you have any support for this?

Do you have any support for the contrary?

Have you met human beings like the Buddha with supernormal power who can communicate by mind?

Have you met non-human beings communcating with bhikkhus? :alien:
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:16 am

Element wrote:
Ben wrote:Do you have any support for this?

Do you have any support for the contrary?

Have you met human beings like the Buddha with supernormal power who can communicate by mind?

Have you met non-human beings communcating with bhikkhus? :alien:


That really is not an answer. You have claimed that devas are human beings. It is up to you to support your claim.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Element » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:Okay, and your textual source for claiming that devas are human beings is?

This is not a Classical Theravada thread.

However, there is the text when just after Buddha was awakened, he was asked: "Are you are deva, are you a gandhabba, etc,?"

Clearly the Buddha was not flying in the sky with wings when he was asked these questions. He was simply walking with serenity and radiance.

Further, the Buddha answered: "I am awake".

Funny how Westerners come to Buddhism ('religion of awakened wisdom') but have still not overcome their superstitions picked up from the Bible, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, watching alien science fiction movies, etc.

To be a sotapanna, one must at least show some modicum of rational intelligence and abandon superstition.

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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Element » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:25 am

tiltbillings wrote:That really is not an answer. You have claimed that devas are human beings. It is up to you to support your claim.

Buddha said his teaching is "sanditiko..... paccatum veditabo vinnuhi".

My answer is an answer.

However, your response is bullying harrassment. :spy:
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:29 am

Hi Element,
Element wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That really is not an answer. You have claimed that devas are human beings. It is up to you to support your claim.

Buddha said his teaching is "sanditiko..... paccatum veditabo vinnuhi".

My answer is an answer.

So, your answer is: "Trust me, I'm Element?".

Mike
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:29 am

This is not a Classical Theravada thread.

However, there is the text when just after Buddha was awakened, he was asked: "Are you are deva, are you a gandhabba, etc,?"

Clearly the Buddha was not flying in the sky with wings when he was asked these questions. He was simply walking with serenity and radiance.

Further, the Buddha answered: "I am awake".


No, this is not a the Classical Forum, but that does not mean you can just make things up and call it the Buddha's teaching. As for the text, actually quote the whole text.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Element » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:That really is not an answer. You have claimed that devas are human beings. It is up to you to support your claim.

Similarly, in the Vinaya and in the suttas, there is the phrase 'animal talk'.

This does not refer to communicating with non human beings.

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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Element » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:36 am

tiltbillings wrote:No, this is not a the Classical Forum, but that does not mean you can just make things up and call it the Buddha's teaching.

Are you inferring Buddhadasa was making things up? Are you inferring you know better than him?

If you are interested in the thread, links were posted. But if you are not, it appears you are simply "trolling".
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:40 am

Greetings Element,

I'm trying to open...

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... udents.pdf

... so we can actually have a meaningful discussion on what venerable Buddhadasa said... however, the link doesn't seem to be responding. (maybe it's a large file and there's network isses?)

Do you have an alternative URL we could download it from, or could you paste the text relevant to question 47.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:41 am

Element wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:No, this is not a the Classical Forum, but that does not mean you can just make things up and call it the Buddha's teaching.

Are you inferring Buddhadasa was making things up? Are you inferring you know better than him?

If you are interested in the thread, links were posted. But if you are not, it appears you are simply "trolling".

In which link did Ajahn Buddhadasa state that Devas were human beings? Is it in the book Retro is asking about?

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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:43 am

The text is widely known. It is beyond dispute.


Then quote it for those who do not know it.

Also, if you are claiming Ven Buddhadasa said devas are human, quote him as well.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:50 am

Dear Element,

All we are asking is that you tell us where the idea is written down. Having downloaded the book, I now think you are misreading Ajahn Buddhadasa:

Page 50 of Buddha Dhamma for University Students, by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:
41) Now consider the “happy state”
“Where is the happy state to be found? Where do we go to get happiness?”
In the texts, there is a passage which speaks of celestial beings (devatas) dying, passing away, coming to the end of their merit, and
coming to the end of their life spans. It also tells of their wishing to attain the happy state, seeking it, and wishing to know where to find it. In the end they come to the conclusion that the happy state is to be found in the realm of human beings. The celestial. beings rejoice saying, “May your wishes be fulfilled! Go to the happy state in the human realm!” The expression “happy state in the human realm” signifies that in the human realm impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-selfhood can more readily be perceived than in the celestial realm. In the human realm there are enlightened beings, there are arahants, and there are the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. In the celestial realm, that jungle of sensuality, there are none of these things. Thus, celestial beings come to the human realm in search of the happy state. It is ridiculous that human beings here should want to go to the celestial realm for happiness. Yet some people seek paradise, happiness in the next existence, in the realm of celestial beings. They invest in it by making merit, giving to charity, selling their houses and goods, and building things in monasteries. Where is the genuinely happy state to be found? Think it over.

I don't read that as saying that "devas are human", I read it as saying that the smarter ones want to be reborn in the human realm...
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby Element » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:As for the text, actually quote the whole text.

Dona Sutta.
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Re: The teachings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:53 am

Don't be stingy. Quote the section you referenced.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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