Can Arahant suffer from clinical depression?

[PeterB]

Some suggest that clinical depression can be caused by chemical imbalances of neurotransmitters (particularly of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine) in the brain. If that is so, could Arahant suffer from such physiological disorder?

I am reminded for some reason of a song by the Bonzo Dog DooDah Band called " Can The Blue Men Sing The Whites ?"

[Hoo]

Actually Hoo, stress doesn't induce ulcers.

Although stress and spicy foods were once thought to be the main causes of peptic ulcers, doctors now know that the cause of most ulcers is the corkscrew-shaped bacterium Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori).
-- http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/peptic ... ION=causes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

kind regards

Ben

Hi Ben,

I still think in those terms when it would be more accurate to say that stress doesn't induce all ulcers but can be a factor, as can medications, spicy foods, or anything else that effects the gastric lining. Until something effects the lining, my understanding is that the bacteria remains a benign passenger. Even then, if the bacteria isn't present, ulcers can still be the result of other factors.

EDIT: I plan to try to quit telling jokes in a forum. I just don't have the timing

But to go back to clinical depression, I thought Retro had a good take on it. The arahant may be experiencing poor serotonin reuptake or other brain-chemical problem, for example, but he doesn't *suffer* because of it. He experiences the body but does not suffer because he has ended suffering.(if I understand what Retro and others were saying).

[PeterB]

Without wanting to be pedantic Hoo the evidence is that although stress and an unwise diet can be the means which enable the bacteria to gain a foothold , it is they, the bacteria which stop the body from healing itself as it does with other lesions. Working backwards from effect to cause , if a dose of an appropriate antibiotic is given to a sufferer from stomach ulcers the ulcers will heal even if the diet remains the same and the stressors are relieved. Of course while the stress remains and/or diet remains unamended the likelihood of the ulcers returning remains high.

[OcTavO]

This is a fascinating topic because it drives right to the center of the question of whether mind equals brain.

I've been diagnosed with clinical depression. Having experienced first hand the speed and force with which it can alter ones mood and behavior, and the speed with which a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor medication can put thinking back to "normal", I'm not about to underestimate it. It's so clearly biological to me. No different to any other illness.

I side with those who say yes - an Arahant, being a biological organism, can undergo the same biological problems as any of us. When it comes to whether an Arahant could suffer from it, I have to say I truly don't know. Perhaps the very biology of mood disorders precludes Arahantship.

[PeterB]

Interesting point OcTavO...
Chicken and egg.

[jcsuperstar]

this question goes to the heart of is the dhamma true or not. if an arahant can suffer than what is the point of buddhism? if an arahant can suffer there is no reason to strive to be an arahant since alas the buddha lied and there is no end to suffering in his system.

[PeterB]

I dont agree jc superstar. It points to yet another distinction that needs to be made to separate Buddhadhamma from the Veda religions prevalent at the time of its birth.
It is a Hindu/Vedic belief that realised beings do not experience physical or emotional pain.
There is nothing canonical to support this. What is supported is a view that they regard the arising of physical or emotional pain as simply that which arises. They dont own it or define themselves by it.
It is quite clear from the description of the Paranibbana that the Buddha was experiencing pain.
Verse 28 Paranibbana Sutta " sharp and deadly pains came upon him, but The Buddha endured them with patience and mindfulness".
It was simply arising.
The aim of Dhamma is to produce freedom, not to produce robots.

[Hoo]

Without wanting to be pedantic Hoo the evidence is that although stress and an unwise diet can be the means which enable the bacteria to gain a foothold , it is they, the bacteria which stop the body from healing itself as it does with other lesions. Working backwards from effect to cause , if a dose of an appropriate antibiotic is given to a sufferer from stomach ulcers the ulcers will heal even if the diet remains the same and the stressors are relieved. Of course while the stress remains and/or diet remains unamended the likelihood of the ulcers returning remains high.

Hi Peter and Ben,

The bacteria aren't the sole cause at work in all ulcers. What you are saying is generally true, that the bacteria are present and will need treatment in about half of the cases. But other cases continue for other causes. E.G. a chronic smoker who drinks and is under a lot of stress is at higher risk even if the bacteria aren't present.

So I don't think any of use are making a case for 'sole cause.' I see it more as a question of whether an arahant will experience physiological effects and/or psychological/behavioral effects. JMHO, but I tend to agree with those above who say that physical effects would be experienced but psychological effects would not be 'suffered.'

But I still think there is a joke in there about an arahant who suffers from stress induced ulcer or tension headaches. I just don't have the comedic skills to tell it!

Hoo, not a faded glory comedian, nor a comedian of any sort

[jcsuperstar]

I dont agree jc superstar. It points to yet another distinction that needs to be made to separate Buddhadhamma from the Veda religions prevalent at the time of its birth.
It is a Hindu/Vedic belief that realised beings do not experience physical or emotional pain.
There is nothing canonical to support this. What is supported is a view that they regard the arising of physical or emotional pain as simply that which arises. They dont own it or define themselves by it.
It is quite clear from the description of the Paranibbana that the Buddha was experiencing pain.
Verse 28 Paranibbana Sutta " sharp and deadly pains came upon him, but The Buddha endured them with patience and mindfulness".
It was simply arising.
The aim of Dhamma is to produce freedom, not to produce robots.

i'm not talking about pain. but suffering. well dukkha, translate that how you will.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Hoo,

But to go back to clinical depression, I thought Retro had a good take on it. The arahant may be experiencing poor serotonin reuptake or other brain-chemical problem, for example, but he doesn't *suffer* because of it. He experiences the body but does not suffer because he has ended suffering.(if I understand what Retro and others were saying).

Yes, you understood my position.

Metta,
Retro.

[altar]

Hi all,

No one here has mentioned anything about what constitutes depression.
The point has been made that an arahant can experience physical pain. This is clearly a feeling that has no other implications beyond itself as the arahant has no aversion or negativity towards it.
What then are we calling depression? Is it merely a low feeling in the mind? This is NOT what is meant by depression. It usually means negativity towards oneself and towards others resulting in lack of interest. Either a mental thought like a dagger, "I hate myself," or a weight, like, "Why must I get out of bed, ugahhuhh," due to a heavy mind. Heavy with what? One with metta "wakes easily, sleeps easily, and dreams no evil dreams."
Ask yourself, if you had literally no hatred, could you be depressed? It would simply be a feeling in the mind, not real depression, if you think so.

[PeterB]

What you have described altar are some ways that some people who are feeling depressed experience their reality. However that is the everyday conventional use of the word depression . The clinical use differs from that. Those signs may or may not be present in any number of combinations in Clinical Depression. For example many people with Clinical Depression present with a variety of physiological signs, and may not be aware of a Flattening Of Affect ( "heaviness of feelings ")
It might be surprising for example , but if your doctor suspects Depression she may ask you about your bowel activity....
Depression frequently results in constipation. There is no clear cut off point between the "mind" and the body.

[Annapurna]

this question goes to the heart of is the dhamma true or not. if an arahant can suffer than what is the point of buddhism? if an arahant can suffer there is no reason to strive to be an arahant since alas the buddha lied and there is no end to suffering in his system.

if an arahant can suffer than what is the point of buddhism?

The point is not a release from physical pain in THIS life.

It is ending rebirth and ending the suffering this entails, more than anything. Remember the Buddha also complained about severe abdominal pain before he died. It's not like Buddhas or Arahants lose physical sensations and become painless.

An Arahant or a Buddha still has a biological body with all the nervous reactions that come along with it and which will report injury and pain to the brain.

Those painful sensations will be realized, and suffered through, because pain is pain and remains unpleasant, but an Arahant's reaction to it will be according to his realization.

[altar]

What you have described altar are some ways that some people who are feeling depressed experience their reality. However that is the everyday conventional use of the word depression . The clinical use differs from that. Those signs may or may not be present in any number of combinations in Clinical Depression. For example many people with Clinical Depression present with a variety of physiological signs, and may not be aware of a Flattening Of Affect ( "heaviness of feelings ")
It might be surprising for example , but if your doctor suspects Depression she may ask you about your bowel activity....
Depression frequently results in constipation. There is no clear cut off point between the "mind" and the body.

Nonetheless, Peter, if you take out the heavy mindset and hatred and glumness, it reallly takes the depression out of depression. They may as well call it "Biological Bowel and Other Associated Physiological Abnormality Condition"

[acinteyyo]

this question goes to the heart of is the dhamma true or not. if an arahant can suffer than what is the point of buddhism? if an arahant can suffer there is no reason to strive to be an arahant since alas the buddha lied and there is no end to suffering in his system.

I think the problem here is understanding the arahant like a person. please tell me is an arahant to be found?
the clinical depression affects what? the brain, the mind, the body? Is any of these the arahant?

best wishes, acinteyyo